Make Paladin’s Even Better

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Clingingdecay, Aug 17, 2018.

  1. p2aa Augur

    Great, some forumquest fun starting !

    From what I know, you aren't an everquest developper. So you don't know what can be coded and what cannot. Doesn't make your opinion more valid than mine.

    Go have a look at what abilities do. If you claim that SK self healing is better than paladin self healing, you are lieing. My opinion is perfectly legit. It's not pleasing you and your friends because when you say something not positive about paladin you start calling out people doing personal attacks.
  2. Wulfhere Augur

    Right. It's been SPA 451 for most of 2018 afaic so always useful. When I solo or molo, I like having both Refute and Protective (SPA 162) going for 2H DPS stance. I don't want to see them combined and further nerf that gameplay option.

    Enhancing Protective to be a true SPA 55 rune would probably conflict with Knight's Synergy. I do like the general idea (reviving Divine Favor line) as paladins have historically been relatively stronger against caster NPC thanks to our stuns, resist buffs, and shield of brilliance. Let that carry forward.
  3. shiftie Augur

    I admit to being wrong on the spa. Haven’t paid much attention to refute outside of the helix combine.

    The point still stands the vie on protective is insignificant and mostly a waste. I much prefer something without stacking conflicts that has a meaningful impact.

    If it was only as powerful as our weapon proc it would still be favorable.
  4. Wulfhere Augur

    Stacking Refute and Protective is 25% melee dmg absorb. That's like having a defensive disc running all the time. Refute is 196 mana and can be spammed as the vie expires (it's the new Yaulp).

    It's true that Protective looses out to paladin's SPA 162 disciplines, but it works fine to bridge those periods. If it was stronger then 20% (as SPA 162) it would obviate those paladin disciplines. I'm all for having it be something else in line with it's design to extend protection over the target's target. The best two obvious options are: an SPA 55 rune, or an SPA 163 hit absorb (Aegis lines for pets), keeping in mind these would stack with paladin discs. Another (creative?) idea is an SPA 312 buff (Sanctuary) for say 3 ticks, but that seems exploitable.
  5. Seldom Augur

    Protective Devotion overwriting Cleric Vie line is making it lose majority of it’s luster unfortunately. That alone is a rough/poor(bug?) stacking conflict without even factoring in our Vie discs etc.

    I mostly agree with both your ideas, I’d like to see this corrected somehow and made more favorable. If nothing else, Devotion being changed to not overwrite Cleric Vie would bolster its viability.
  6. Brohg Augur

    Caring about Vie's 1: Absorb Melee Damage: 10%, Total: 68395 feels super weird when you're spamming yourself with Protective Devotion 1: Absorb Melee Damage: 15%, Total: 63652
    Maedhros likes this.
  7. Seldom Augur


    I surprisingly didn’t even realize Devotion overwrote Cleric Vie until a few weeks ago when Stephen, Allayna and some others luckily pointed it out in the Paladin future needs thread. I had always been under the assumption this was patched back when nearly all Vies were made not to overwrite each other years ago and for strongest to take precedence till fade. With that being said, I’ve probably indeed cared about it in a overly super weird way the past view weeks as I’ve been re-evaluating how to best utilize :)

    Upon making some triggers recently to notify me of Cleric Vie/Light of Vie heal firing on fade to better monitor frequency etc. I’ve been finding it less and less beneficial to utilize under many normal conditions the more I analyze, arguably detrimental in some
  8. josh Augur


    cleric vie is useless, that shouldn't even be getting cast on you and it definitely isn't something you should be concerned about overwriting, it has roughly the same damage cap as protective devotion. Shining defense is what you want, both it and PD stick on you at the same time since they are in different slots and SD doesn't have a damage cap. In my opinion, PD is the best target of target heal we have, it might not be as strong as censure or valiant defense but it can't be resisted and it gives you 63k worth of melee mitigiation.

    If a cleric is wasting time casting vie on any tank you should inform them that they need to stop and start casting shining fortress/defense
  9. Brassar New Member

    As the knights are battling back and forth about passive and active heal abilities lets ask this: why does a warrior only have a 2% better mitigation than knights? Then there is the why not better uptime on discs then knights....boost warrior mitigation back up where it should be and let them be the mitigation kings they are suppose to be. Currently a lot of the knights can tank as well and in a lot of content better than a warrior. Oh and this out of combat 96% rez thing what is that all about pure priest can do that why does a half cleric get it not to mention the priest 90% click stick.... And Gift of Life 400 range what is that like half a zone come on really guys.
  10. Warpeace Augur


    I liked your troll thread you started better.
  11. Wulfhere Augur

    I disagree insofar as cleric vie is a classic priest contingency spell (because of it's duration) and people don't like loosing their contingency because of a temporary song buff.

    It's like having a bard song (Dirge of Dreams or Requiem for the Dead) overwrite Vie. They don't. Cleric Vie and Protective should not overwrite each other for similar reasons.
  12. Maedhros High King

    Get the hell out of here with this. You cannot seriously be saying warrior disc uptime suffers to knights. They just removed Spell casting Reinforcement mastery affecting paladin and SK discs. All of the modern knight discs were designed with durations that were adjusted exactly because they were affected by SCRM. Now that they are no longer affected by SCRM the knight disc uptime is a total joke.
    Gift of Life was a very nice bone that they threw to paladins, but if you think thats some kind of game breaking mechanic instead of the 20 minute refresh time - nice button to push, you're overreaching.
    I hope this was just a troll post for satire, because youre seriously out of touch if not.
  13. Seldom Augur

    This is a thread titled Make Paladins Even Better. If you think Warriors are in such horrible shape, why are you not posting in the recently created Warrior Suggestion thread?
    Wulf stated some of the things I was going to point out already. Regarding Devotion being best ToT heal we have in your eyes, I tend to find it weakest in vast majority of scenarios and cast it the least on a weekly basis. I’m curious to know if I’m missing something though as I tend to agree with most of your posts. My reasoning:

    Valiant line: Quickest cast, lowest mana, largest heal, best AE/single target aggro. Tends to be best ToT to blow twinheal charge on due to size of heal and recent change to witness check heal aggro

    Censure line: Second quickest cast, second lowest mana, second largest heal, second best aggro, fires potion proc, only dps heal

    Devotion line: Longest cast time, most mana, lowest heal. Obvious pro is can’t be resisted. Other main pro is suppose to be Vie component. With mantle/armor running the Vie pro obviously does zero. Without that it then becomes Devotion versus Vie/Shining etc. with cleric available. So it basically becomes 5% Vie versus additional free healing from the other effects which are blocked or taken precedence over. I believe this ToT was meant to be our clear go to one in majority of situations where we’re sulking up damage and trying to survive. I don’t think it properly achieves that with the mega saturation of 162 SPA’s. I’d prefer it to be placed under a different one and if not that allow it to not knock off/block vie
    Wulfhere and Kleitus_Xegony like this.
  14. shiftie Augur

    5% mitigation does not overcome 100% uptime of cleric vie both of which are rendered useless under discs which means you are wasting a spell slot during important tanking scenarios.

    The heal is weaker and in a pinch is chosen because there is no resist to it.

    I’d much rather a rune to block dmg on a spam spell to augment the existing uptime of cleric vie/paladin discs.

    Josh’s comments non withstanding it would be 5% of a hit up to 63k so a mob hitting for 25k hits for 22.5 with cleric buff or 21250 with paladin version a diff of 1250. I’d rather find a way to make up that difference that isn’t rendered pointless under discs.


    If they want to take the easy way out up the heal amount or add in another effect when the vie is used up ie add a rune proc when it fades or an ac buff or spell shield ... something
  15. Kleitus_Xegony Augur

    Nice attempt at trolling, but let's be clear about it. The knights aren't battling back and forth about it. It was a single warrior that was claiming Paladins would suddenly be overpowered compared to Shadow Knights if the behavior of our heals was suddenly changed to work the way Lay on Hands now works. There was no thought or understanding regarding how current spells work, limiting factors such as mana costs, casting times, recast times, spell group timers, spell bar lockouts (AKA "rest" times in the spell parser), etc... have an impact on the balance issue. It was an argument born of ignorance.

    The original post is really a quality of life improvement but things like F1 or [tab] already do a great job of quickly switching the target to ourselves, so it's not a huge QoL improvement. The original poster is probably someone that boxes and uses alt-tab to flip between characters. It's how I do it and I get it, it sucks when you forget to switch targets on the paladin and hit the mob with a quick heal and waste it since it doesn't do anything but use mana. Would it be nice, sure but it's not something desperately needed and yeah, it would need to be done for all directly targeted player cast heals not just Paladin heals. That's something I doubt the devs want to do.

    Now the topic has changed to debating the usefulness of the Paladin vie spell and whether it overwriting the Cleric vie is an actual issue. The only real issue with it is when the Paladin version overwrites the cleric version and then the Paladin buggers off to do other stuff (ex. spamming the Paladin protective heal on a boss mob in the raid and then going off to deal with adds instead of keeping the Paladin vie up full-time on the main tank). If you really want to discuss the 2% difference in mitigation, then have at it but the drive-by trolling is just childish.
    Maedhros likes this.
  16. Sheex Goodnight, Springton. There will be no encores.

    Kind of par for the course for MS FQ posters these days (sans kitteh Zav who’s a good dude).

    Hint: it’s not satire.
    Liljit likes this.
  17. Wulfhere Augur

    I doubt this line has 2nd best aggro, especially after the last patch, due to its negative hate mods on both the nuke and the heal.

    I like having all three ToT heal spells memmed to cover the 5s or 6s cool downs. Protective gets cast the least of the three, thanks to the vie stacking issue. I mainly cast it when I'm soloing with 2H weapon stance (and not using a defensive disc) to mitigate some of that penalty damage.

    I think SPA 163 is the best option for making a simple change and it would have to be a small value like the "1250" Shiftie quotes because it would stack with paladin (and other's) defensives (which is not true now).
  18. josh Augur

    Valiant defense is actually the weakest heal, it doesn't benefit from worn focuses. Here is the average of 100 heals done by valiant and devotion respectively; 46427, 52107. This is also true for dichotomic force and reflexive reverence and a couple other heals of ours, this is because their paladin level is set to 255 and the level cap on the focuses is 115, censure is set to 107 though so it is currently our strongest target of target heal. Perhaps this is a mistake and me bringing it up will fix it?

    Censure is actually negative aggro, there is a negative hate mod on both the heal and the nuke, which, even before the witness check fix, results in negative aggro overall. in fact, now it is always negative ae aggro. You get aggro still from the nuke and the heal if it is witnessed but the loss from the negative hate mod is much higher than the gain. Again, possibly a bug? maybe will get fixed? who knows.

    My biggest gripe against censure though is the resist modifier, it is just way to easy to resist, I mean, i guess with a fully debuffed raid mob it doesn't get resisted that much, but for me, i just don't like the potential inconsistency there, not a spell i use.

    My go to tot heals are VD and PD. I don't like censure.

    With the decrease to the duration of our discs, the melee guard on PD is more important than ever in my mind, it combined with holy guardian is our maximum mitigation potential, and when I've run out of discs you bet your butt i wan't that extra 5%. Even if they don't fade early, our two 162 discs can only be active 1/3 of the time. It would be great if it was under a different SPA, i certainly agree with that.

    I tend to use poison procs to help proc rogue alliance these days, I haven't looked into that in a while though so maybe that has changed, for all i know they've stopped using it, I've definitely heard less complaining about it lol, i don't know though.


    Perhaps saying it's useless is a bit of hyperbole, obviously its good for any non tank class for instance, and you can never have too many backups, so it would be nice if they didn't overwrite, but i stand by the idea that i don't think PD overwriting vie is any reason to not use PD.
    Maedhros and Seldom like this.
  19. Wulfhere Augur

    Indeed, this is a very good point to bring up with Dzarn! These heals say they are focusable but their paladin caster level of 250 or 255 is a breakdown. It's not the typical 254 (AA level exclusion) so it seems like a data bug to me.

    It's doesn't lower your hate overall. Hate Mod is a relative value (not absolute like Hate Override) that adds or subtracts to the hate that the spell otherwise generates. The negative values are intended for this spell line to lower their hate contribution.

    You're right that with the patch, it's reliably reducing ae hate now and it's possible for the witness mobs hate to go to zero (or negative if not clamped) under some rare circumstances but I doubt that removes the paladin from the hate list (mem blur). If you're trying to hold aggro on multiple mobs, Censure line is not a spell you want to be casting.

    Yeah I often use Audacity for this reason and still like to proc Tashan and/or Darkened Malosenia on namers. On resistant mobs, Tash stick first helps to get the other two spells to land.

    Still very true. The stacking is SPA 168 (36%) + SPA 162 (15%).
    Maedhros likes this.
  20. Seldom Augur

    Josh, I find most of this extremely intriguing. Was completely unaware of much of this information and definitely think some of this knowledge deserves it’s own thread. Thanks for sharing. You’ve definitely changed my views on how I’ll factor in somethings. Color me very impressed. The Valiant tidbit 100% seems like it must be unintended bug