Mage or Wizard on Phinny?

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Spesh, Feb 10, 2016.

  1. Spesh New Member

    I'm starting on Phinny but having a hard time choosing what class to play. I'd like a class that can solo ok if needed when I can't find a group. I was thinking of either a Wizard or Mage, because I'm not a huge fan of the charm kiting classes.

    I know Mages are better at soloing than wizards, especially at low levels, but I heard pets are really bad on Phinny... is that true? Also, Wizards might be nice because of the ports, but I'm also afraid they might be boring, and I've heard they're not great in Classic/Kunark.

    Any advice on what to do?
  2. Constellation Augur

    Necros are great at soloing. Mage, wizard, though? Hm, I would pick the wizard just to be different.
  3. Spesh New Member

    Isn't everyone a Necro though? Also, I'm afraid of being a bad race and getting killed by guards. :(
  4. Numiko Augur

    pets are not that bad, they just cant steamroll all content without any aid by the Mage and be at 100% health at the end of most fights like they used to.
  5. Bewts Augur

    Solo and casual play? Be a necro.

    Want to raid? Wizard is where it'll be at to bring the heat.
  6. Constellation Augur

  7. Tudadar Augur

    I wouldnt make a mage. New nerfs come out of nowhere every 2 months or so. Choosing a mage now gives you no rights to expect the class to remain the same one u picked when you started. I wouldnt worry about being able to solo really. Just pick what youll like playing the most. Not many people solo often at this stage. Lots of people like to think theyll be able to but it just doesnt really happen unless they are farming PP. If you want to farm PP I would make a necro.

    Wont hurt being able to FD trains
  8. Spesh New Member

    Ok thanks for the advice. This might be a dumb question, I guess, but I notice in the world chats people will say things like "Lvl 8 Shaman LFG" or "WTB HQ Wolf Pelts," but I guess I'm confused because the 8 Shaman could be in EC, and I could be in Qeynos.. or the person buying pelts could be in Kelethin, but I'm in EC. Is there some fast travel now that I'm unaware of? It seems like advertising that you're looking for a group or buying and selling in world chat is pointless because it takes 3 hours to travel across continents. Am I missing something???
  9. Tudadar Augur

    Can use parcel system to mail others items or shared bank to transfer item and make a human.

    Those guys will either get port to near group or just turn down far away offers. They want to broadcast the message to as many people as possible.
  10. DuchessElindra Elder

    There is no reason to pick Mage atm.

    For solo necro is widely superior.
    For raids both wiz and necs are more dps.
    For group play nec and Mage are rather equivalent.
    As for utilities the ability to port around is a huge edge for grouping in lower levels.
  11. -wycca Augur

    Wizards are horrid in group content. It's literally the worst exp grind group class you can pick. They're also not great soloers - they can't farm trash easily, they can't kill named mobs for loot pretty much, and exp soloing is basically medding a ton in between a few kills. That being said, they're one of the best raid classes bar none, and ports are pretty damn nice.
  12. Finley Augur

    Eventually AoE groups become a thing and wizards are good contributors then!
  13. Rhiyannon Augur

    my hubby is struggling with his mage alt pre-20's, the pet... dies a lot.
  14. Moranis Augur

    Never got a mage to a high level myself, but wizards are decent. You can port and are always on the raid list. Group game is literally stand up when the mob is at like 70% health, drop a bomb and sit back down. Being in a group with clarity makes you about 50% more effective.
    There's a small window, from about lvls 43-50 where you can out-DPS anyone (due to conflagration) on any mob that doesn't resist fire, but from 50-59 the struggle is real. Seriously, from lvl 43-59 you get no nuke upgrades in terms of single shot damage...then you get sunstrike.
  15. Bewts Augur

    You basically trade efficiency (mana used per dmg dealt) going from 50 to 60 without seeing any increase in actual damage you can deal per cast on single target spells (like Ice Comet and Conflag).

    It sorta sucks. You cast faster, stay similarly the same level of efficiency and do less damage per cast. Translates to you standing more and casting more for marginally better efficiency but also limits the time you med. It works better in a fast paced chain pull group, but chances are if you are a primary DPS in the group you'll run OOM WAY BEFORE you guys run out of mobs to pull.

    The magic is learning how to effectively use rain spells (tears line) because they are the most efficient option of mana used per damage dealt. I'd steer clear of using them on red con mobs, but a debuffed yellow con and most while/blue cons shouldn't resist any of the three waves very often. I think the first tears you get after level 50 puts you around 1500 dmg per cast on a single target?

    WORD OF WARNING: You can nuke yourself to death very easily with them if you aren't careful, they break mezz and you can actually get 4 total hits of damage (instead of 3) if you hit two mobs at once instead of just one mob. Don't try this on two mobs unless the tank and group know this is how you intend to nuke down multiple mobs. Oh, and rains are not modified by Improved Damage focus items.
  16. superman Augur

    listen to bewts, he's got a brain. To say wizards aren't good in group is ludicrous, most people just don't know how to play them. Wizard rains are the best dmg per mana spells in game atm. add to that mana preservation foci. mana pres potions will drop mana cost another 5% for a total of 15% less mana per spell, on top of Improved dmg mask which ups dmg by 20% you are probably going to outdps any melee out there and probably mages/necro's too if you are in a setting where you can utilize rains. and i dont' see necro's being as good as mages in groups, no way mobs die to fast. that being said on our raids if casters can land top ten parses are always wizzies/necro's a few monks sometimes at the bottom. bewts did misquote the dmg for the tears line. the first tear spell is 2100 dmg per cast and the next one at 54 i believe is 2700 dmg per cast. so pretty nice upgrades there. and you don't have to be that far to use em. usually just outta melee range. wycca did get one thing 100% right, they can't farm well, and they can't solo named. quadding will come around in kunark which is prolly just as good as mage/necro solo, but it won't really farming...

    I play a wiz obviously :) but from your post overall i'd say you'd be better off with necro. Necro adds lots to gruop other than dps and can solo great. wizzies can't really solo for exp well until kunark.
  17. -wycca Augur

    Since you referred to my post earlier, I'll respond to yours. Btw, "he's got a brain" isn't exactly a ringing endorsement, since everyone has a brain ;) . Rather, it's the application of it that matters. You're obviously enthusiastic about being a wizard - great! That being said, it shouldn't blind you to the classes flaws in groups.

    I'm going to assume you don't have any TLP kunark experience, and your knowledge is limited to classic when it comes to playing a TLP wizard. I say that because that's the impression I get when reading what you posted and when you're discussing wizards in Kunark. As I said previously, wizards are a great raid class - no argument there, but it's worth noting that the parses get shaken up in Kunark, and depending on the # of sk/mnk your guild has, and the fight, you're not going to be battling only necs for #1 anymore. When it comes to soloing, there's a reason you never see quadding mentioned by anyone who has actually played a TLP wizard in Kunark. :rolleyes: Sure its theoretically possible, but yea...have fun. Mage/Nec will run circles around you to boot.

    Let's look at your argument though. What matters isn't how much damage it can do, or how efficient it is, what matters is your sustained dps. Great, so Samdeathwalker the wizard can do 2700 dps! What can he do over 1hr? How does that compare to say, melee classes, or classes with pets (hint, it's not favorable for a wizard to make that comparison). Therein lies the problem. It's the sustained dps in steady pull environments.

    The other problem, is that improved damage doesn't work on rains. Plus, every other class gets those modifiers, so the net efficiency improvements (espec the lack of ID working on it) actually set wizards back in spell casting in comparison to other classes when using these. Ie, since they're not using rains, the non-wiz will gain efficiency ground due to ID working on their nukes.

    Tears of Druzzil (lvl 52) - 698 per wave for 338 mana. With MP3 & max spec at 60, it averages around 280ish mana.
    Tears of Solusek (lvl 55) - 896 per wave for 421 mana. It averages around 350ish mana.
    Tears of Prexus (lvl 58) - 896 per wave for 421 mana. It averages around 350ish mana.

    Wiz mana regen is 25/tick sitting at 60. Let's assume you have c2 and it's +11/tick. Sure, you can use potions too, most people won't pay for the distillate given it's rare component, but the +2/tick shaman one is np. Besides, you often won't have an enc or brd in group, so you'd be stuck with +0 from that type of regen, or maybe you have a marketplace potion (which is like 7 or 8 at that level). That's a total of maybe 38/tick mana regen maybe. If you're not casting and can actually sit down mid-fight. I'm going to use 38/tick because it seems like a reasonable compromise in what is likely to be used by most wiz in an exp group.

    So let's break this down. It takes approximately 48seconds to med back a Tears of Druzzil, and approximately 60seconds to med back a Solusek/Prexus. That nets us roughly 43dps for Druzzil, and 45dps for Solusek/Prexus in that time frame. So your sustained dps is never going to be much more than 50dps in a steady group, and is more likely to end up alot less. Why alot less? Because I don't know a ton of groups who can consistently bring in every single mob they're dpsing and keep it far enough away from other mobs so that you can use your rain. Yes, you can use it alot in a good group, but it's not guaranteed every mob. In addition, that number doesn't include resists. Yes, those still happen. Your actual dps is probably going to hover closer to 20-30dps at best (this doesn't include standing to cast, can't med, etc situations).

    Now, what other classes can do better than 20-30dps sustained? Well let's see, that would be - Nec (pet only probably does at least this), Mag (pet only does more), Enc (charm pet does alot more), Rog, Mnk, Rng, War, and Brd (dont forget dps songs) most likely. That leaves...Shm, Dru, Clr, SK, Pal. Except I actually think SK and Pal melee may be around this in Kunark, so tough call. Druids get some good nuke and dot lines, so they're theoretically around this (and they have 2 neat druid-only mana regen spell lines they can use). Shm can probably match this (spamming JBB = like 25dps!!). Ok, so maybe a clr can't match this. So yea....are wiz really even a group dps class with these numbers?

    So in conclusion, most classes do more sustained dps, and they do it trivially easier than Wiz. For most it's just auto attack or /pet attack. The other classes, offer substantial utility or roles in a group that Wiz can't fill. Don't get me wrong, things like snare, evac, and ports have uses, but the primary thing a wiz is bringing to an exp group is dps. They do this worse than just about everyone else in a sustained setting. Burst - great, but I don't know many exp groups that purposefully exist to not 1) keep mobs in camp, 2) who count on having to evac reguarlly, or 3) who like to have large med breaks at very regular intervals (ie every 10 mobs or so).

    One thing I'm not sure you're aware of, I have a wizard on Ragefire. I played one in Classic and Kunark, I might still be the best geared one on Ragefire (I checked, looks like someone finally passed me in magelo - 2 months after I stopped playing on Ragefire). I've played wizards on raids and in groups in all that time, solo, farming, quadding, and ae'ing. I regularly topped parses, including on mobs people assume are mnk/sk dominant mobs. Done it all at 50 and 60. The class is a great raid class. Tons of fun. It has a pretty big critical flaw in that it is the absolute weakest group class in the game. Hopefully this fuller explanation explains why I posted what I did. Although if you're enjoying playing a wizard - great - good for you, don't let me rain on your parade. Nevertheless, the facts get in the way of any number-based analysis that they're a kick- group dps class. They're not. They're incredibly weak in groups.

    TL:DR - Math easily proves how weak Wiz are in steady groups. They're a great raid class, but large flashy numbers shouldn't fool people into thinking they're a good group class.
  18. Bewts Augur

    You present some good points, I'll give you that.

    For reference, I run a WAR CLR BRD ENC WIZ WIZ. All are level 60, BRD and WAR are epic, CLR is about to be. I have CoF on both melee, and WDC cloaks on the wizards.

    Both of my wizards are around 4300 mana give or take 10 to 20 mana. Overall, fairly well equipped and enjoy the benefit of Obulus Death Shrouds now (I swear they don't make the difference considering their cost!)

    So, in that context, I don't think everything is as bleak as you make it out to be. Now, granted my group is designed to take advantage of wizard burst DPS simply because I double up on the mana regeneration, which I think with BRD and C2 is in the 36ish range per tick? I mean, who doesn't like seeing both Sunstrikes crit for 3k each on a mob that barely hits 8k HP?!?!

    A camp I've grown to know well is the Kennel in Chardok which, outside of mobs from the Palace and Korucust's room is one of the higher level camps to address. In a spawn window I can clear the 3 mobs in the room where the Kennel Master spawns, the two dogs outside of it, the Sarnak on the corner, the front two Sarnaks outside of the dog pit and all three dogs in the pit. Both the PH's for the named dog and the Kennel Master are on slightly longer timers. However, on the initial breaking of the spawn, I have to clear 11 mobs in something like 16 or 18 minutes I think?

    Overall, with a bit of planning, pacification and mezzing I haven't had many problems breaking the spawn. For simplicity of timing the named PH's, I mezz the Kennel Master from the get-go, keep him mezzed until I pulled the named dog (or PH) and off him and then the named dog PH back to back (so I know when the named are spawning).

    Sometimes things get a bit frantic and tight on mana, but once broken, I'm clearing all 9 trash spawns and the two named spawns with ease (left multiple times with more collars than I care to admit while leveling to 60).

    Liberal use of harvest becomes the norm, but I cannot recall a time I went OOM with my wizards trying to keep up with spawns. I've been in the 15% mana range a few times when I wasn't smart with nukes (tossing and landing a Sunstrike with wizards when the mob is at 10% is a terrible waste of mana!).

    Things get easier once the initial spawn is broken and mobs are generally single pulls. Tears is more efficient and I believe my mana typically hovers around 40 to 60% depending how many mana preservation checks I get closer to the 10% instead of the average of 5%. Staying long enough and not blowing mana simply because I'm too impatient to let my melee bring the mobs down that last 10-15%, I start to hover closer to 80% mana on the wizards. I don't even bother nuking with the cleric or chanter although I clearly could and not worry about mana with them.

    Am I killing as fast as some groups could? Definitely not. I don't use a charm pet because I really don't need it at this camp.

    I've also been able to hold all of Korocust's room for hours on end. It gets a bit dicey with the HT's they throw, especially if they wack a wizard with one and I have to battle rezz - but once again a well planned break in makes mobs come in single spawns where tears becomes the go-to spell. Wizard mana didn't really get too tight there considering the mobs have more HP than anywhere else other than the Palace.

    So - if you're going to argue that sustained DPS is weaksauce on Wizards? Sure. But I mean do you really need to pull the 4 trash mobs at the bridge outside of Korocust's room to camp the named there? Or the extra two Sarnarks above the dog pits or the three around the corner headed back into the mines?

    Well, thats for you to decide, they're just trash mobs. So if the difference between knocking a wizard is a few trash mobs, I think you'll be okay choosing a wizard groups if you play your class right.
  19. Bewts Augur

    Quadding comes into reality in Velious. Get a pair of Jboots and get to work. Hopefully you're max level before Velious comes out so you don't have to worry much about quadding in CS, fighting druids and other wizards for the 4 mobs to make it worth your time (is it ever really worth it?!?!?).

    And yes, I was incorrect on the tears numbers. Mind you, ID3 does not strengthen the tears line in the slightest. What you inspect on the spell is the damage you get. Single target spells, however benefit from ID3.
  20. -wycca Augur

    I actually agree with everything you posted in this quote (didn't want to quote the full block though).

    That's why I've tried to be careful to point out that it's a steady pull situation. If you're only camping a named for example and don't need exp - then you're right - it's not the same. When there are significant pauses (ie when only killing around a named for example & having downtime), it lowers melee dps contributions over time, while raising that of casters (because theoretically the downtime lets them store up higher dps bursts). Of course, other casters may benefit just as much (ie mainly mag, but depending on overall group comp - nec), but it certainly can raise wiz up relative to other classes in terms of dps contributions at that camp.

    They still have wretchedly low sustained dps in groups. Unfortunately, it never gets a ton better. It's not as much of an issue until Luclin though - I mean, yea during the leveling grinds youre less optimal, but once youre 50 (or 60) - you're done, and it's all really just farming named. The problem is that AA coming into the picture puts gaining exp optimally (ie pulling those 4 extra mobs if you can each spawn cycle) back at center stage even when you are max level. That's one of the reasons I didn't make a wizard on Phinnie after having one on P99 and Ragefire. Exp groups ended up feeling like charity events where I didn't pull my weight next to a necro pet or the group's pallie tank melee dmg. That's not an enjoyable situation to be in, even if raining and nuking is fun.

    PS - superman, my post reads more dickish than I intended it to be. Sorry, was trying to keep it a bit lighter and explain. Also, since youre raiding on your wiz, have you graduated to using rains on raid mobs yet? =P
    Bewts likes this.