[MAG] BP suggestions

Discussion in 'Casters' started by Sirene_Fippy, Jan 14, 2017.

  1. IblisTheMage Augur


    We have the aggro swords (6% each) as part of our class makeup.

    We can buy aggro masks in the /bazar that gives around 25%. The problem is that when the pet dies, we loose the mask, the masks are typically lore (so that we have to look at a lot of masks, and buy one of each with an aggro enhancer effect).

    Both items increases the pet's aggro, which is limited by pet type and AA, and of course attack enhancing bufs.

    The swords alone are not sufficient for the pet to hold aggro satisfyingly, the swords and the mask is. Therefore my take on it is that it has to be in that order of magnitude.

    If it should be a clicky, I would prefer it to be a permanent buf on the pet, so that it can be turned on and off. I would prefer it to be in the general order of magnitude of the masks available in the bazar. If it is significantly lower, I will have to buy the masks anyway, and I will have gained very little. If this goal can be obtained with a +aggro pr hit instead of a %, then that is good, but I think it would be easier to use the %, development and balance wise.

    A mage grouping with a tank class should immediately switch pets to a DPS pet, with damage swords instead of aggro swords, and disable pet taunt. Bad mage-play (or bad tank-play).

    ...aaand I got another idea (sigh).

    Would it be possible to make the robe focus an aggro lowering effect, and the clickie an aggro enhancing perma buf, that would override or drown out the aggro lowering effect, and could be clicked on and off? Aggro toggle...
  2. Sancus Augur

    What? That's literally what you asked for...
    RS survivability is absolutely crucial to pet tanking, and they get eaten up by EoK mobs. An AC boost wouldn't help at all with their survivability on raids. The second option might help somewhat, but realistically with its potency (or lack thereof) AEs are going to kill swarms either way. Either option would contribute far more in groups than in raids without some sort of damage modifier.
    AC would absolutely scale. Does it mitigate 10k damage? 100k? 200k? It depends completely on the mob's attack and DI values. It would mitigate more on mobs that hit harder. Ngreth is specifically looking for flat numeric additions, like Block X damage with a rune. The second option you provided (proccing heals/runes) might be easier to make not scale if it was a set value; I admittedly misunderstood it when I first read your post.

    That makes a lot more sense than just summoning the actual clicky. Realistically it's probably easier to have Ngreth add a new swarm pet that does X damage (whatever he settles on) and to then retain our ability to use our clicky pets since in that scenario it wouldn't share a timer. The current implementation of the clicky pets means they really don't do much damage in groups because they cast a significantly weaker spell when not fighting raid mobs, so I'd imagine a more generic clicky pet would benefit those not in raids more.
    IblisTheMage likes this.
  3. IblisTheMage Augur

    I am not always making sense... :)
  4. Piemastaj Augur

    If it works, then I would not be opposed to a Cascading Rune effect on our pets as a clicky. Like I said though, I am hesitant because of the AA ability that does not currently work.

    IMHO, aggro is an incredibly bad idea. We have had periods where pet aggro got pets banned from raids and made moving mobs around for groups incredibly not fun. Getting aggro with no way to remove it should never be an option for our pets, unless it is for a Companion of Necessity pet which its entire job is to gain aggro quickly.

    To help both group and raid, either a clicky nuke or pet would appear to be the best option for us. Obviously for a set amount of DMG. Allows easy adjustments and increases for future robe clicks without getting too fancy with game mechanics and pets. Either that or a Gather Mana/Mod Rod on our robe.

    TBH I am more concerned with us retaining our 2-3 second duration on Garg pets as an AA and gaining a better worn focus effect on our Robe that effects Spear or Of Many. Pet pathing alone should warrant us gaining an AA for increased RS duration. Has there been any thoughts one way or another as to the Worn focus on the BP? That was up for discussion earlier in the thread, but nothing since.
    IblisTheMage and Sancus like this.
  5. Minato Augur


    Wait wut....

    Ill leave now dont want to derail a good thread sorry
  6. Sancus Augur

    Ngreth has said in other class' threads that he won't fix the stacking conflict with Eye of Decay, which means a straight damage focus will be worthless for raiders. Using SPA 461 would be the ideal solution, but if, for whatever reason, he decides that can't/won't be done, I'd rather not swap to a useless focus. Some sort of mana preservation for Spear would still be viable. I would also be in favor of a damage increase for RS (rather than a duration extension) if that is feasible with code since it would avoid stacking conflicts.

    Whatever happens, I'm strongly in agreement that the duration extension should become an AA.
  7. Ryino New Member

    Personally I wouldn't mind the click staying the with a proc for the pet if a couple things could change.
    1. Less counters for more damage. Current raid is 16 counters x 15,000 damage, I would rather have 8 counters at 30,000 damage(adjusted to whatever the right damage output is for new BP). Virulent talon already is more for sustained DPS with so many counters, this would make the BP click more noticeable during shorter burns without changing the overall damage done
    2. Remove the bash and backstab limits, and/or increase the proc rate more.
    3. Make it proc on spellcasts for fire pet.

    If the click were to move to a proc on our spells instead of pet that works too, thought I do prefer pets doing damage where possible.

    For the focus I would like to see the RS pet extension get moved to the AA line (where it makes more sense) and get some sort of new focus. Swarm pet survive-ability or damage seems nice, I just don't know what would make enough of a difference to be worthwhile to ask for.
  8. Vizier Augur

    If +pet aggro focus is impossible / off the table, then go the other way and make it a -mage aggro focus. LIke a mini silent casting I guess. Point is, group / solo mages could use a little extra help on this front. You guys keep going back and forth like this and we will end up with an upgraded version the useless clicky we have now.

    And no, we really don't need mana discounts on spears or other effects. They gave us infintie mana setups with reclaim energy, don't be greedy.
  9. fransisco Augur

    I Agree with Vizier, a mana return wouldn't make a difference for a grouping mage.
  10. Piemastaj Augur

    Not really a back and forth when we were asked to present ideas to make our BP better.

    The flip side is, we do not provide many suggestions and it does not get changed at all because nothing new gets brought up. Disagreeing with something is fine, but actively trying to eliminate productive conversation about trying to enhance our class is ridiculous.

    Like I said in my previous post, we could get a BP focus for our Of Many line or our Spear lines which could also be a reduction in hate. Not entirely sure how it would be done, but that is an option that was already brought up (not entirely directly, but was posted). Could also be a pet hate buff that lasts an hour (Making it a buff allows for people to click it off), and give it lets say 25k hate per proc. Again, not sure if that meets the guidelines that is requested, but it would not touch DPS which is why it may work.

    FYI if you pull fast enough with no breaks, everyone needs mana.
    fransisco and Sancus like this.
  11. fransisco Augur

    What about a click to summon an better agro sword? like +20%
  12. IblisTheMage Augur

    I am not convinced that pet aggro management is of the table.

    A focus that gives -10% pet aggro and a permabuf-clicke (buf clicked on has duration permanent, can be clicked off) that gives +30% pet aggro for a net +20% would give the ability to dial up and down, a wonderful tool for our pets, that will not unbalance mages IMO, and be "very mage". This should be converted to age appropriate +/-xxx hate pr hit instead, appropriate to the expansion, since devs want to move away from giving %, but the percentages above reflect the amount needed, as I percieve them.

    Mana in group game: my group has a enchanter and a bard, we kill EoK trash in 20 secs +/-, try to pull as fast as possible, and my mage no longer clicks rods nor use symbiosis. Aggro and mob death are the barriers to nuke more for me.
  13. fransisco Augur

    Iblis has a point. What if its a continual pet agro buff?

    If it stays damage, I'd like it to not be a pet damage proc. We have several of those now.
  14. Ngreth Thergn Developer

    I have gotten a new decision on this. We can consider something that does stack for FUTURE content, but current content will not be changed. This conversation is about future content, so...

    That said I worry about using 461... because it is bugged. And if it gets fixed, that would, of course, have a large adverse affect on spells made with it.

    1. perhaps
    2. Can't increase the proc rate, it is already as high as it can go and as close to 100% as can be done with that SPA and other effects existing at the same time. Could add to/remove that restriction, but if removed, perhaps the proc rate needs to come down so it doesn't just blast away in two-three rounds of melee by the pet. OR instead of reducing counters increasing per hit, go the other way of increasing counters reducing per hit damage.
    3. Perhaps, that is a reasonable thing if still desirable.

    --------

    As for the pet aggro stuff mentioned by others in the thread. Percentage effects would be a replacement of the focus, so you would "lose" the current pet duration focus. I put lose in quotes in case it become avaialbe in other methods. And no. I don't know if it will or not at this point. So for conversation, we can still talk about both possibilities.

    For the static click effects. A mentioned de-agro proc with a set amount of hate reduction per proc is feasible. The other mentioned "+30% increase" isn't going to happen.
    Again. No percentage effects. Period.
    And that no percentage effect includes no summoned item that offers a percentage effect. And realistically, a summoned pet item *is* a percentage effect, even if it is not obvious. The damage offered by the weapon is highly variable according to many conditions on the pet, its buffs, haste level, etc...
    Ryino, fransisco and Sancus like this.
  15. Sancus Augur

    Thanks for this response Ngreth, I think many across classes are going to be happy to hear this.

    However, I'm curious what you mean by 461 being bugged? The only ability that uses 461 that I'm aware of is Beguiler's Synergy which appears to work at least as the description suggests. I suppose SPA 302 would be another option, but I'd opt for higher than 5/7% at that point since it isn't multiplicative with SPA 124 (and obviously 302) like SPA 413 is.

    Regardless, if the stacking issues were to be alleviated, I'd be heavily in favor of a focus for Spear.

    With regards to the focus, are you willing to entertain the idea of one that can be turned off (probably via a permanent buff), or does it have to be a real focus (i.e. always on)? The issue remains with an aggro focus that it's actively detrimental in most situations where we aren't pet tanking, meaning there at least has to be some method for turning it off.

    Even then, though, barring a level increase, I'd end up wearing my old robe most of the time since any aggro focus would only be useful when pet tanking whereas damage is basically always useful. That would likely be true for anyone who groups with real tanks or raids and is interested in maximizing their play.

    Because of that I am (again) strongly in favor of a focus for Spear.

    A pet aggro click would be a much more reasonable alternative (though I still wouldn't use it).
    IblisTheMage likes this.
  16. IblisTheMage Augur


    Dear Ngreth,

    Thank you so much for taking your time to evaluate the aggro-effects.

    I regret writing the "30%" , because what I meant in my latest post was not a % aggro modifier, but effects that somehow subtracts or adds a set amount pr swing. The reason that I added the % was to give an indicator as to how much aggro would be needed to generate, based on my own experience with summoned aggro swords and /bazar bought aggro mask. I do not have a very strong understanding of how swings, procs, and aggro work, so you will have to bear with me when I say something illogical. I know that I need my pet to generate more aggro than it does with the current mage tools, because it is not enough.

    The main point I wanted to convey was that I, as a mage, would love to have a toolbox, where I can switch between two states, based on which type of group that I am playing in: one state where my pet does less aggro than now, and one state where my pet does (quite a bit) more aggro than now. A continuation of the pet taunt ability, if this is a good way to explain it, but based more on achievement and effort.

    My perhaps somewhat naive idea for implementing this involved the pet aggro lowering effect as being the robes (only) constant effect. So in this case we would give up the 3 sec swarm pet duration that we currently have. I am perfectly fine with this, as long as it would also include the second state: when we click the robe, we are in a state (indefinitely until we remove the buf) where we now have an increased pet aggro generation. Possibly implemented via a set amount of added hate generated pr swing, again, I am no expert in how this should be done in the best way.

    The caveat is that if this aggro increase was an effect with a set very short duration (let us say 5 min out of 10), I would never use the robe. It would be somewhat ok with it if the pet aggro buff duration would be longer than the recast on the robe clickie effect, I would then have to find a key where I could squeeze it in, a key that I would need to use on every combat.

    But I would not love that effect's duration. For me to love it, the duration should be in the range from 2 hours to permanent (until clicked off, as I mentioned). It would add to my own narrative of the magician class; namely that we can control how much aggro our pets does.

    I think that added or subtracted hate amount pr swing would have to increase with each expansion, which would make it both more exciting and also more necessary for a mage to get a new robe in a new expansion (given new spells that do more damage etc). Also, it would give the opportunity to design different group and raid robes with regards to hate amount added pr swing.

    The success criteria for me would be that with the new robe, I no longer have to purchase an aggro mask from the Bazar in order to nuke hard when my pet is tanking (even with such a mask, I unfortunately still have to be careful not to nuke too hard from time to time, and furthermore, often there is no mask available for a price that is relevant for an item that will be lost the next time my pet dies).
  17. fransisco Augur

    If the click is any sort of pet ability, please do make it also work on the fire pets as well.
  18. IblisTheMage Augur


    ohh well,

    passive: Spear focus
    click: long duration buff: pet hate pr swing increase

    is a much better idea than mine. I actually never need my pet to do less aggro... I am sorry for all the blabla, clarity does not always come fast to me :). Disregard my earlier posts...
  19. fransisco Augur

    I like the longer term pet agro increase.
    If its not a 100% up time, I don't think it'd be nearly as valuable.
    Though it seems we are trying to address basic pet shortfalls with a clicky.
  20. Nylrem Augur

    IMO, the BP should have nothing to do with pet agro effects. We should get a new SPELL, that summons an agro mask, which would stack with agro swords, AND receive boosts via spells (I would actually prefer Chaotic, over Spear, boost, but either would be ok) for BP.

    There are many times I don't want pet to agro... Like, pretty much any time grouped with a real tank...

    However, earth pet agro stinks, and even air pet isn't awesome. We need a way to increase pet's agro, and a way to keep it so it's not too high, when grouped with tanks.
    IblisTheMage and Sancus like this.

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