Lord Nagafen and Lady Vox level 52 or lower requirement

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Atomos, Jul 22, 2021.

  1. Kodachi Elder

    The only reason I would want to see it removed is if I want to randomly kill Rokyl and don't want to do the mess of pulling him out of Nagafens lair without getting banished. There was a point where I was farming a set of stuff for tradeskill leveling and the dumb mask he drops is all/all.
  2. Waring_McMarrin Augur



    Yep, if an npc doesn't even take a group to kill it you are not ever going to competitively kill it. Especially if it is actually intended to be a group mob. Competitively doing something isn't about people wanting or not wanting to kill something but also if there is an actual challenge there.

    With some of the group mobs you mentioned is the competition who can be the biggest jerk?
  3. Atomos Augur

    Unfortunately Sky was reverted to non-random loot pretty early on, even though it seemed pretty simple how it should've worked from the start.

    You couldn't be more wrong. Challenge does not determine whether something is competitive or not. Challenge is a type of competition. We all know how simple and easy Everquest is but every TLP there is a list of when each guild killed each raid target for the first time, and usually who got which class epic first. That is competition, whether you think it is or not.

    When people are sitting on top of Cazel's spawn point because it is the only place to get a particular item, they are competing for it. It doesn't matter if they are going to use it or sell it. It doesn't matter how rude you think each player is. It doesn't matter how many players it takes to kill the mob.

    When you are bidding on items for DKP/GDKP or even if your guild uses another system like loot council, you are competing for the items. When you roll a die, you are competing.

    I'm not sure what kind of self-imposed definition of competition you've created in your head, but you might want to check the dictionary for yourself.
  4. Waring_McMarrin Augur


    Competitively trying to see who can be the first to KS the rest of the players? That sounds like an amazing competition that truly shows who is the greatest on the server. Show us all how great you are by bringing a raid of level 60's to kill a mob that had a restriction placed on it when it was duo'd. Show us how great you are by being able to KS a mob that can be soloed.

    Sure something may be popular but that doesn't mean there is any competitive value in determining who can kill it. The level 52 restriction has been on those mobs for decades and I don't see any reason that would change because someone is upset about not being able to open world kill them. There are more servers where you have to keep someone at level 52 while you are complaining on a server where any level can kill them in a DZ and will be able to do so until it catches up to a live server.
    Triconix likes this.
  5. Nyvlag Elder

    No, no, no. He's totally right. It's a really amazing competitive race all the way to the bottom.

    I'll agree there is an aspect of "Competition" to it when it's the highest level content and the server has just been released. Well, there was in 1999. Now it's just kind of sad how much of the online identity and clout surrounds this act, 22 years later. But sure, there's something there.

    Previous expansion content? No competition. The mobs are up. You are free to take your friends and make some 52 boxes and do the content, but there ain't no one competing with you or anyone else. Because it doesn't matter, and your argument is moot.

    No one gives out trophies for the 700th kill of Nagafen.
  6. Atomos Augur


    There's a pretty big difference between being upset about something, and thinking something is stupidly bad design. If we assume that someone is "upset" because they make a post, then we're going to assume you're upset about this post. See how stupid that sounds?

    None of the people arguing against this are leveling alts to 52 to kill them either, so thanks for the support of it being bad design.
  7. Nyvlag Elder

    I actually did several TLPs ago. I did on Live as well. Mostly just for funzies. Definitely not for competition. Definitely not because the loot was even remotely worth it. Just cause it was fun to level up some alts with buds and kill them.

    You know Ragefire was released in 2015? Fippy launched in 2011. Wow. Time flies. 10 years ago. A lot changes in 10 years.

    It's not good design. You're right about that. But there's also really no reason to remove it. It matters exactly zero, and all your arguments against it are pretty shrug worthy. If DZs weren't a thing, you MIGHT have a leg to stand on.
  8. Niskin Clockwork Arguer

    It wasn't bad design when it was put in, it was necessary. Years later, with AoC's that ignore the level limit, it's arguably unnecessary. But it's also unnecessary to change it, anybody who wants to get these kills has a way to do so, without the level limit, often enough to get whatever they need. Literally anything that requires dev time that isn't majorly important to the game is a waste of time. There is no abundance of dev time, and the Bug Report forum is filled with plenty of things that are far more important than this.

    In a perfect world, with perfect devs, and unlimited time, yes, this would probably be removed. But that's not where we are. So it's likely it will stay as is.
    Waring_McMarrin likes this.
  9. Waring_McMarrin Augur


    You seem to be arguing that you are not as competitive as you can be because you can't kill a previous expansion mob in open world. Sure the restriction is silly but it has been in place for 20 or so years and asking for it to be removed because it isn't being killed in open world when you can kill it in a dz is silly.
    Nyvlag likes this.
  10. Atomos Augur

    Do you hear yourself? You say the restriction is silly and then will go pages and pages about being against removing it. If that isn't a surefire sign of someone who wants nothing more than to argue, and doesn't actually care about the topic at hand, I don't know what is.

    Enchanter was also the same way for like 22 years and it finally got some decent nerfs. I guess by your logic nothing in the game that is old should be changed. For no reason other than it gives you something to argue about on the forums, apparently.

    Literally ask yourself, would you care if the restriction was removed? If you saw the changes in the next patch notes, what would you think to yourself?

    I already know the answer to that, you'll think it a pointless change that means nothing. But your life will go on and then people will kill OW Naggy and Vox on their level 53+ characters, oh the horror. What's more pointless though, the change or the effort you're putting in against it? Please, literally, ask yourself, what your goal is. Cause you've already spent more time on this thread than it would take to make this change.
  11. Waring_McMarrin Augur


    I don't think that I have ever said that this restriction shouldn't be removed. What I have been saying this entire time are my issues with the the reasoning behind it being removed. You seem to be upset that no one is killing the mob and it stays up even though you are on a server where anyone can kill it via an AoC dz. You seem to be upset because not killing an open world mob that is pretty trivial once Kunark comes around is removing competition from the server.

    Your justifications for the removal of a mechanic seemt to be all about how it would benefit you without consideration on how it would impact players on every server. Sure you might be annoyed by it being up for so long but not everyone is. If it could be killed by two players before we had all the modernization to improve dps how long do you think it would be until it became just another spot for krono farmers to get a quick easy kill? Seems to me this would be a quick easy kill for some players if they don't have to worry about being banished as all they have to do is keep track of the spawn cycle and lock it down.
    Nyvlag likes this.
  12. Nyvlag Elder

    Yeah, no one is arguing it SHOUDLN'T be removed... there just isn't a real good argument that it SHOULD be, either. The only argument is, "it's not good game design" -- while that has some merit, I don't think it's enough to really be concerned with, given that DZs exist and it basically nullifies all of the issues around it being an argument.
    Niskin likes this.
  13. Doranur_Aleguzzler Augur

    Don't fix what ain't broke.
  14. Atomos Augur

    And you've completely ignored the part where I said DZs having the same respawn timer as OW targets is ridiculous and that OW targets should be spawning more often and drop more loot since they are OW targets. And I also said I'd be more than happy for OW versions to have MOTM or whatever. But that doesn't seem to mean anything to you, you and others are the ones that are focused on the competition part of this for whatever reason.

    This change probably wouldn't benefit me at all. I don't normally join guilds like this, but right now I am in one of the most if not the most casual guilds on the server. 99% of them won't even compete for epic mobs. The only way they'd ever kill an OW target is if they were on the way somewhere and caught something up. They would definitely not actually leave trackers at anything and I'd hate to see them actually race towards something. Socking is out of the question.

    I guess this is where I apologize for not being the type of player that only cares about changing the game to cater to myself.
  15. Doranur_Aleguzzler Augur

    First off, if your guild isn't going to step up and be proactive, maybe find another guild. An alternative is to form a coalition with other casual guilds on the server, especially small guilds. Pool your resources to team up and hit raid targets. We had the Guild Coalition Project on Terris-Thule for years, and it built a pretty solid community among us.

    Second, restricting loot drop rate on a DZ is just going to potentially allow the "top" guild on the server to block every other guild by making sure OW raid targets stay dead all the time. Until allowing this change creates krono sales for whomever owns the company this week, don't expect a change on that.
  16. Nyvlag Elder

    Actually, I'm out. Tired of this circular convo.
  17. Atomos Augur

    Batphone guilds are a rarity. Even within those guilds, a lot of people don't participate in it. Regardless, my guild's position has nothing to do with this discussion.

    It also doesn't really matter how people do things on your server. On P99 there used to always be a big argument about raid targets, because some people played on servers that implemented and enforced rotations, where each guild took turns killing raid targets. Most servers didn't have that though, most players were used to FFA cutthroat mentality. Just because something worked on your server doesn't mean it will work on another. P99 tried the rotation for a while. They eventually got rid of it.

    Second, I never said anything about restricting DZ drop rates, not a single time anywhere in this thread and neither has anyone else. Making OW targets spawn faster and drop more loot does not mean that DZ should be nerfed. I think DZ is generally pretty much fine the way it is. It is the OW targets that don't make any sense.
  18. Waring_McMarrin Augur


    I still don't see a compelling reason to change something that has been in the game for over 21 years as it was added shortly after Kunark launched. At the time they decided the event was for lower level players and they didn't want to make it more difficult to challenge higher level players. I understand you don't like that it the open world version isn't killed regularly but that alone isn't really a good reason to change it.

    http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20000622.html

  19. Atomos Augur

    Why are you linking that? It's completely irrelevant. It's from 2 decades ago. This isn't 2 decades ago. This is 2021. Every MMORPG including Everquest has been making alterations to their game over time to make it more appropriate for today's player.

    You are not a staff member or a developer. I'm not here to convince you, I didn't make this post for you. You sure have tried to make it about you though. It would be different if you actually made a compelling reason not to change it. But you haven't and neither has anyone else. But that doesn't matter since it's not up to either of us.

    I have been responsible for many many MMORPG patch notes since 1997. That's not going to stop just because of you.
  20. Waring_McMarrin Augur


    So give a reason for the change besides that you see it up when you are in the zone and you think it should be killed more often.