Looking in RoS raids halfway into expansion year

yes - but equating the relative difficulty of the T1 raids as easy because guilds who made a choice to do that is throwing a false positive

You stated that the beat it on day one because they tested it on beta and I was just pointing out that every guild had that opportunity and the fact that some chose to take advantage of it should have no impact on how hard or easy a raid is made.

I don’t recall any of the tier 1 raids being beatable In beta unless you count fell foliage having about 30k hp.

Maybe near the end but I don’t recall

From my experience, it's less about raid forces not putting out optimum performances, but more about too many that don't pay attention. Elite dps does make most raids much easier, but it's also not required. Midling dps can also beat many of the raids, they just have to deal with more of the mechanics along the way. The real problem is people watching tv, web browsing, eating, ninja afk'ing, chatting, etc when they need to be paying attention. Missing emotes, not moving when they need to, not getting on the next target and more are far more detrimental to raid success than having people not pushing dps to the limits. Eliminating those distractions would also automatically improve dps and healing too.

Some of the complexities are what make the game interesting. Many classes can already put out enough dps by just mashing one multi-bind. It's the complexities that allow people to tinker and think. Something many find enjoyable.

Ok we're talking about or interpreting two different things and I'll leave it at that.

That is not really the point. It is not an exercise to demonstrate how uber you are, it is a game to provide entertainment for the players in it. Proper design will produce meaningful content for everyone at all skill levels. With a level increase expansion, the 40 something attendance guilds should be able to comfortably beat the previous expansions top raids. If they can't then the power increase that came with the level up is inadequate. That is the test.

Also, every new expansion should include at least a third of raid content that is beatable by the 40 something guild. End game raids (as in tier 3) can be difficult, but tier 1 raids should be beatable by those 40 something guilds. Failure to implement raids like this is bad for the game because it removes the incentive for the folks in those guilds to continue playing. It is NOT healthy for only one or two guilds who happen to be able to field full raids and have a full complement of the best players on the server be the only ones to make any significant penetration into the expansion.

Frankly, TBM and EoK were much better designed in terms of raid balance than RoS. Even then, the linear nature of unlocking raids is a problem due to the raids being arranged by zone rather than by difficulty. That sort of thing usually results in a bottleneck raid that impedes access to easier raids (Queen in TBM is a prime example of this).

It is not unreasonable to expect tier 1 raids of every expansion to be relatively easy to do (challenging but doable for a 40-45 raid force), tier 2 raids more difficult (challenging but doable for a 46-50 raid force) and tier 3 raids the most difficult (challenging but doable for a full raid force). Above that there should be an end-boss raid that is extremely challenging, but which drops special raid-chase items with next expansion stats.

Very often that is not the case however, and raids which have no business being included in tier 1 are placed there, while others that have no business being in tier 2 or 3 are in those tiers. It creates a system where there is usually some bottleneck raid early on that blocks most non-uber raiding guilds from progressing significantly, and that creates a lot of frustration in those lower tier guilds which has a negative impact on the game. It seems fairly clear that raids are being arranged by zone rather than by the inherent difficulty of the raids being placed in them, and that is a serious design problem IMO.

I am blaming internet TV, Social Media and cell phones! They are the debil!

I have none of these, so I am not sure what my excuse is gonna be...I need to come up with something.

What isn't helping server population is the fact that DBG (and before them SOE) have refused to spend $1 to actually advertise EQ for at least 10 years!
You can't expect to have healthy server populations when no one knows the game even exists.

P***hub?

Dude, I just graduated from dial-up to 1.5 mbps DSL in 2007!! I haven't been able to experience that kind of entertainment yet.

Let's just say I have blonde senior moments.

My guild is not elite. We usually finish in the 20-25 range. Yet we've managed to clear Gor, SF, OT and ST1 with 40-45. We also have a very wide range of skill level within those ranks. With the nerfs to ST2, there should be plenty of ros raids open to lesser raid forces.
If guilds are struggling with ros t1, it's not the content, it's the guild. Perhaps you need to look at your strats and/or raid leadership. Or maybe it's people that need to decide if they're really wanting to raid, or are just showing up hoping for loot.

Ok, I don't even raid anymore, but I always did til I stopped playing at end of RoF. This discussion sounds very familiar, but there are a few things being overlooked on both sides here.

1. Most raid guilds then were barely, or even not quite, finishing the previous expansion before moving on to current, and many had major issues til at least this far into the expansion. (I say most bc the majority of raiders are NOT Machin Shin etc (Sorry idk others atm are or not still top) and are instead what the elites are calling casual raiders. The thing is, casual raiders frequently raid a lot MORE hours than you do a week, for much lower returns. Daybreak makes a lot of money from raiders, as it's kinda required to raid to have expacs and gold at all times. The elites rush to the end and get bored, remembering to only take the absolute cream of the crop. There aren't enough cream of the crop players out there, just how it is. So you want what 80% of raiders to just quit, bc they don't meet your standards? Sorry, but that's idiotic. (This isn't aimed at any one in particular, but at all the ones saying the raiders having issue should just quit raiding causetheyre not good enough.) People enjoy raiding because they enjoy raiding. Not everyone enjoys raiding bc they can day ha ha I'm better than you and my guild beat your guild blah blah. That's childish, but how many of you are acting.

2. RoS across the board is leaps and bounds beyong EoK in difficulty. The trash mobs in the entry zone hit harder than raid mobs jist a few levels lower. Let me repeat that, the TRASH in ENTRY zone. Only a few nomraiders are even playing in RoS because they just cant handle the hits and aes. Assuming this translates to raiding the same way, of course the RoS raids need tuning.

3. As also mentioned, raiding last expansion and often the one before that was usually better than grouping the current one for gear, but that no longer seems the case, therefore whoever said omg 7 out of like 300 encounters boohoo....no. not 7 out of 300 if only 7 are relavent to current group content even then it's all raids, or all raids that are locking doable ones at least. but that's something that wasn't an issue when I was raiding. You could raid via and in some cases Ho t, and bet better off than RoF group gear, depending on the item, and you could then raid ToV in RoF even of nothing else was doable and you couldn't conquer vulakerr, but that came later.

4. Tanks. Survivability. It's not just about dps checks, but the ability of your tanks to live through, and your dps to not die and be handicapped even after a fast rebuff, to then still, with attention pulled from event to rezzing and rebuffinh that needed dps and those needed tanks etc. All these things detract from the ability to beat a raid, not just attention span and audiotriggers for emotes etc. If you elites alts can out dps some raiders, congrats, but can your group geared tank alt outsurvive a raidgeared rank? Hardly. Unless you're comparing conflagrant to older raid gear. Without meeting certain ac and go checks, yours tanks aren't going to survive no matter how many or how good your healers are, and every time a tank falls, the chance to beat said encounter drops significantly. None of this^ equates to bad playing, but not being fully and consistently geared from the immediate previous tier, i.e. endgame eok for t1 RoS, to be able to have a chance. You used to be able to tank well enough in t1 prior expacs, just not fantastically, but it didn't require a totally linear chain of eventbeating. Slower guilds are lesser geared and lesser gear means less survivability for tanks and dps and support, and lower focus for heals and nukes etc etc.

There are more things I've already forgotten since I started typing, but mostly: people don't suck at life just bc they're not in the big 3 raid guilds and should therefore quit trying, and yes RoS is a huge jump in home requirements from eok. That said, casual raiders shouldn't have to be done in 2 months or less to be allowed to enjoy AND benefit from raiding, they also shouldn't need to exclusively raid current expacs (cough cough item dev and random raidquality loot) to improve upon their group gear. It's at the point now where no one can become a raider if they're a tank class if they haven't done so all along or been given dzadds for rot, or were simply an alt that got geared. Tanking is so much about gear as well as spells discs and was, and support classes. Dps has a much much easier job, but they still have to survive to do it. If eok still nets viable upgrades from RoS group, then go raid it more and stop complaining. If it doesn't, then something needs to be done to bridge thegap.

You wrote a lot there, but most of what you wrote boils down to this. And the things is, they’ve already done a lot to bridge the gap. RoS group gear is a marginal stat upgrade to TBM raid gear. But the TBM raid gear has focus effects that are fully valid (no deprecation) at level 110. That’s useful gear from two expansions ago for current leveled raiders - farming it expands the number of available raids significantly, and that says nothing of the augs (the eyes) from the raids. If your raid force has casters choosing RoS group gear over TBM raid gear, they’re making the wrong choice. I can’t speak to melee because I don’t know how melee focus works - I’ve been a necromancer since I started playing.

The RoS crafted gear is an excellent upgrade path if you’re in TBM raid gear and looking to break into RoS without farming EoK for a year. Even if your raid can only beat Gorowyn, you get six diamonds a week. That’s three pieces of gear with RoS raid focus that negates the need to farm additional EoK gear to improve.

Farm TBM when the events you can beat in EoK and RoS are on lockout until nobody is getting upgrades. Make sure your DPS are taking appropriate advantage of foci and the buttons they have to click. Do the group missions for group coin to get the better Type 5s. There are so many “catch up” mechanics in the game that weren’t around even five or six years ago.

Today marks the second nerf to T2-2 Drusella's Vault...in 2 months...back to back patches to nerf or "tune" the event down.

As far as I recall...anyone else walk into RoS with full RoS raid gear? No? That's right, we were wearing EoK raid gear. RoS has been an extension to EoK...from the era of kunark revamp to the tier of gear from RoS visible requiring EoK visible...

It is an extension of the previous expansion and expecting to beat the new content before you beat the previous is just...

And? You have a T4 with great rewards and an easier T3 or T2 or T1 with lesser rewards. That's the previous paradigm for years. Its simply a method of getting more out of the same content and introducing a hard level. You either beat it with minimal restraints, or you work and beat the unforgiving version to get more stats. Whether you do or don't is up to the players and guilds.

It doesn't matter what you do, people are going to complain.

The important part is to allow lesser guilds to finish the content for lesser rewards so they can work towards doing the ballbusters for absolute max if they choose, not because its the only way to progress. All having hard blocks does is lead to guild implosions and retirements, and then eventually you are playing another game because this one won't generate the money needed to develop expansions.

Except this setup is well-proven in that Other More Successful Game. Ubers gonna uber, and the lesser guilds are usually content with finishing the content and farming upgrades, while not being MAX.

There will be more "casuals" saying they are going to stay because they can finish raids and get upgrades. Look... I can just throw statements out there also. Simple fact is it works and has been road-tested elsewhere and works fairly well. This isn't some setup i'm pulling out of my rear. It does work and has for years and EQ is long past the point where it should happen. The problems have clearly only gotten worse.

They really should trademark this quote and make it the official slogan of Forum Quest.

The Reinforced Lair of Trakanon

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/quest.html?quest=8609

Might still be worth farming this summer.

Have you raided in EoK and RoS ?
I am a warrior. I can guarantee you that gear doesn't have the impact it could have had before.
Allayna said it well, you can tank all RoS raids in previous expansion raid gear.
Raid mobs melee dmg hasn't changed much in the latest expansions.
What plays today the biggest impact on tank survival is how well you use your mitigation discs /AA. Aka skill at playing your tank class.
I have seen tanks in group gear of the current expansion tank better than tanks in raid gear of the current expansion, despite more AC and HP. Because they were using the tools at their disposal, instead of waiting for the repop of your defensive disc and doing nothing in between.
Skill > gear, providing you start with a tank that has done enough work on his character, aka important AA for your classes and aug working. Work that everyone can do, and doesn't require for you to be raid geared.
To come back to the current expansion, Gorowyn raid which every casual force can beat, drops visible raid gear similar to every raid in RoS, whatever their difficulty, and also diamonds that can allow you to obtain raid items who have 94-95 %of the stats of raid gear. So lower tier raid guilds tanks are certainly not without options to get current expansion raid gear.

It seems to me that you're basing this on the assumption that there were two tiers of loot to drop.
In that case, i agree.
What, however, if the same loot would drop, only less of it?
All the points you gave would poof and those guilds would have something to raid that they can realistically beat too. with less rewards per run, making for a longer farming time but still allowing anyone a fair shot at "their" loot and keeping them occupied.

And who knows.. over summer, as other guilds on the server are "long done" with the expansion, they get ALTs from those guilds too and can beat the "big version" - but at the time, they'd already know the event mostly (adjusted but essentially the same) and would be more on-par with the "top raiders".

Currently - well, looking back to TDS raids really - we see open raids often having bigger issues than they should have with old content simply because some or even most of the attendants lack practice with a certain event.

Back in my time, we have done open PoTime raids.
We had a "core" of raiders hosting, and stuffing one member in each group who explained their group what needed to be done. Similar on CoA raids when DoN or PoR were current. These days, that's no longer enough, you need to let them practice much, develop a "feel" for an event first-hand. And yes, some of the people that would generally be interested in raiding are dishearted/shied away from that first impression - those are potential recruits we all need.
I'd welcome anything that (survival for low-number guilds aside) allows me to develop a "strategy" for recruiting and gearing people during the summer in preparation for the next expansion rather than having to do it while we learn progression.

LDoNs easy and hard missions are wht i like to think back to as well.
But you surely have read he Dev comments about HOW LDoN was done in the backend, and i can understand that Dev's won't touch THAT ever again.
But i am with you: the idea should still be stuck to, only implemented differently than LDoN.
Because LDoN was anything BUT "simple".

And yes to adding achievements for "hard mode" (as opposed to, for example, locking items behind blocking events).

And since you mention other games:
I would not mind much a "tiered" system like Diablo2 either, where you have to go through the same events at different difficulties to reach the highscore. Just how the raid-vendor unlocking would work would have to be discussed i think.
But overall, of all the different sytems thought up on this topic so far, i still would prefer a selectable/adjustable difficulty at request as i explained elsewhere.

LU is recruiting competent shaman, wizards, necromancers, zerkers.

Inquire with Mediik, Tillasx, or Explicit.

...couldn't help myself.


I think lot of good points in here, while we've beaten raids in RoS sub-54 (like 45) it's of course more difficult, and it's reliant on having strong dps.

Think the most helpful/relevant thing in this thread is the expectation to be able to consistently field 54 players year-round in a 20 year old game can be unrealistic for many guilds, and should be afforded some attention. Scaling like WoW may not be possible for an old game like EQ, but would certainly be a solution. Unfortunately, TheyBreak Games want us to pay for server transfer tokens instead of merge servers and that leaves small populations full of extremely loyal guildies who have difficulty accepting they should probably collaborate.

/shrug