Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Fian, May 15, 2018.
Hard when compared to the CASUAL Sh't MMOs that come out nowdays, I really need to explain such a thing to you?
btw I am not a * casual* ( xp maxed since a long time, all hunter done and all tasks done ) and like most of our players as well , are xp maxed for most of us..
anyway I like challenge and all , I could have go to top end guilds ( I been asked many times ) in rathe or even other servers ( I had many cross server tells to see if i would like to join them ) but it is my choice to stay in rathe and help my guild and stay with friends. (same for many of my friends as well ).
the comment I did was from what I see and my observations.
IF raids were scaling up, from tier 1 zones to be easier (like no dps check ) ,( like it should be anyway to let more guilds to be able to beat T1 raids, ), and get T2 where it should be and T3 to be very hard . all players and guilds would be happy,( top end guilds will beat T1 very fast anyway even with " road blockers " ).
for me, = more guilds who can raid in ROS ( T1 at least ) = more fun for them and might avoid more players to leave the game,
PS; same thing for group game , more who can play in T1 zones and can do hero tasks, = more fun for them , and more $$ for DB .
having hero tasks like fell foliage and end of empire ( T1 hero tasks ) to be that hard for ros entry zone is not healthy for the game , ( yes I know some will say. suck less and group with others bla bla ) and don't care if they leave EQ.
I guess you do?. Actual hard games exist. EverQuest is predominantly knowledge-based, not skill-based. You can know all you like about StarCraft or whatever - various FPS or MOBAs - and still be bad at them. Seriously bad, you'll get owned (I get owned). Not so in EverQuest; if you know all there is to know, you're A- level at least. Which is absolutely cool with me, that's pretty core to why I enjoy EQ more than those other games I think.
DPS alliances are a must, not just heal alliances. not saying you're not using them, but IF you have 3 or more of a class and you're not procing that class' alliance on the regular then you're failing.
getting mobs fast enough and agro are a skill issue, not a mechanics issue.... DPS is largely a skill issue as well.
so "elites" not getting it....by elite do you mean people who take a raid seriously? listen to instruction well...understand game mechanics...show up for raids when they should and have a overall desire to excel and beat an event and not whine its too hard ?? just trying to be clear
I would venture to say that almost every "casual raid guild" that's beaten any ROS raid could probably beat Talendor in T3, unfortunately you have to beat some of the more challenging raids in order to get there.
As for tuning of the events during beta, someone may have said this already but the Dev's have a limited amount of time and are on a tight schedule when testing these events. They generally go after guilds that have a reputation for fielding full raids and are punctual. The last thing they need during testing is for XYZ guild to show up for their scheduled beta raid and field ~35 people.
You have two options, although I'm sure someone will chime in and list a bunch of other ones. Either stick it out with your current guild and try to motivate the people around you to perform better, or join another guild that has or is closer to beating the expansion and meet some new friends. Sometimes the grass really is greener.
First, a quick shout out for all the leaders of Public raids on Tunare. These people have the patience of saints. Unfortunately, Public is just an audition for higher raiding guilds. It seems people just cycle through and move on. About the time we have a good core geared up and going we loose folks and the process starts again. The comments about people not knowing how to hit the right buttons is spot on. I have parsed DPS at only 300DPS for the entire raid. Not 300K DPS....300DPS...you would think they would know how to turn on auto attack.
EQ is hard the way driving a customized 1970 Jeep Commando is harder than driving a new Toyota 4runner.
You spend as much time fighting the controls as you do the terrain.
Nothing's documented and the parts could come from anywhere
You've got three gauges; one bounces, one is suspect and the last only works if you tap on it.
Problem with making group gear too close to raid gear, only the raids in current exp will be relevant.
I mean people who spend their time hunting with other elites, and don't have much experience running raids with more casual raid forces. The various arguments given by elites in this thread, show they don't know what casual raid forces are dealing with.
For the records, for those that think I am lazy/casual, whatever. I am often the highest dps in my raid force (I play an enchanter). I am sure an elite guild would take me if I wanted to switch raid forces.
That is not a good thing if your an enchanter and the highest DPS on your raid force....something is very remiss on your force if so, but kudos to you for playing well.
you need much less than 54 "elite" players to beat any ros raid, at the end of the day it comes down to learning the events and executing properly.
there are many "elites" that are more than happy to tutor anyone that asks questions-problem is people either don't know where to go for help or are satisfied with playing worse than mercs. the former can be helped, the latter can't and doesn't deserve to be helped
Not saying this applies to you or even most of your friends but it does apply to the situation. I can't explain the number of people who play this game who have played forever, who are maxed AA, who have farmed the best gear and augs they can but still only play at 50-60% the capacity of their class. Be it tanking, healing, dps or the general play intangibles that make it all flow. Max gear, max AA or having played a class for years can all mean nothing if its not utilized properly. A raid can only carry so many people who play like this before eventually reaching a point they can't win even with full raids.
This happens in casual and elite guilds all the same it is just the % of guild that this applies to varies by guild. A lot of guilds will field 54 people and yet play like there are only 40 present. Other guilds might only field 42 and still play like they have 40 present. And while both these guilds are hitting the same walls due to missing the 14 other members or the performance from those attending, the second guild is the stronger raid force just needing a few more like minded to get them over the hump because more of their core is doing what they should be.
The most frustrating part is pinning this all down to fix it.
I's a shame EQ wasn't a little more like WoW. At least Blizzard can afford to keep its staff and fix things in game when they are broken. Don't care about difficulty of raids but this game is bleeding players and someday there won't be enough casuals left to keep the lights on.
Anything they can do to actually make people want to play would be good in my opinion.
I for one am glad that EQ has "hard" content. I wouldn't play a game that anyone, even me, can beat.
OP complaining about a few raids at the extreme end of the game, but looked at from another viewpoint they are perfectly capable of beating over 90% of the total raids in existence. The 10% gives them
something to strive for! It's their right to moan and groan but if they got their way they'd find themselves unhappy for another reason.
Like with many things in Everquest, these complaints mostly come down to the massive skill gap between the top... 3-5% of players, and everyone else.
One of the misconceptions I see from a lot of the more casual players is that the "elite" 3-5% don't understand what casual or open raid forces go through. What they don't realize is that many of these players also raid with "lower tier" raid forces and absolutely do understand what more casual raid forces go through.
The crux of all this comes down to that skill gap and how it becomes multiplicadditive (i invented a new word) when extended across 54 players. The more people not performing at the top 90% of their class, the harder each raid becomes. And when you have, in some cases, 50 out of the 54 players not performing in the top 90%, or not even knowing what the top 10% looks like (as is very, very common), the skill gap rears its ugly head and results in threads like this.
I think it's fine to have a couple "easy" raids each expansion in the first tier - and I think Overthere and Gorowyn are those raids. Balancing the rest of the expansion to that difficulty would be boring as hell. If I had to farm 9 instances of Overthere-style raids once a week for an entire year, I'd probably just quit.
What players should really be asking for, and to the devs credit they've made some advancements in this area, is some simplification in class mechanics to lessen the skill gap. Less complex stacking mechanics, more consolidation, fewer relevant buttons etc. It will get a lot of kickback, but in the long run would allow "casual players" to get closer to that 90% class benchmark without.. actually... learning... anything else. Which sounds dumb, but it would make both group and raid content easier to balance, since right now it's nearly impossible. Anyone who's seen a top-tier group rip through content, group or raid, VS a casual group fumbling through knows exactly what I mean with that statement.
It's not going to be the popular opinion, but it's really what is needed if casuals want more "balanced" content to complete.
I don't (i think).
Both your an dBrogh's posts are.. rather pointed, giving some room for interpretation (and thus "misunderstanding" ) and can both be perceived as rather offending, which isn't good for a discussion.
We had a similar thread and discussion last year on Queen event (and vault), resulting in Maedhros posting his guild's approach here on the forum. That approach works (it's very similar to how my guild did it too), but is the "harder one".
You say that one of the three guilds has beat EoK T2 but not any T3 yet (i.e. they're stuck on Reaper/snowblaze, possibly due to the effect of the crit-blocking zone-debuff). You say one has beaten Queen with outside help. That's half a year (almost) after release.
EoK T2.3 should be doable by anyone able to field 45-50 raiders in EoK T2 group gear by now, provided you have 4-6tanks and as many healers. If the raidforces are reliably reaching the Dervish phase, then the problem might be your DPS or kill order - that's this event's DPS-check (anything past Dervishes is a piece of cake for anyone).
EoK T3.1 is all about mitigating the *extra* AE imo, we beat this back then by optimizing the group setups for healing (e.g. stuffing PALs into the MT and frost groups), others did by kiting frosties while flames were killed... You have several options there, and all that counts is to immunize the "right" classes first.
"The AE issue" isn't one. Or rather: shouldn't be one, the gear today is better than TBM so AEs should be surviveable better these days. One thing is perhaps to time them and perhaps make sure to throw an extra splash before it's due? Another is ofc to mitigate it's effect (hint: beetle room).
I agree on the DPS checks though, there's too many in the last two expansions.
Not a problem for the top10's, with optimized rosters - but, depending on the guild's composition, quite possibly a problem for the rest. I've said the same last year: i think it's a bad idea and lackluster "design idea" and that i think there should be ways to mitigate that for a raidforce that lacks in any one department (at, usually, the cost of encounter time).
That is, imo, *the* problem with design these days and it is my belief that the reason for this is a bad/wrong baseline for the tuning. it is far too easy to pick the wrong numbers if testing is done by the same certain guilds and even moreso when people wear the "wrong" (i.e. new, as basically all beta-testers do) gear.
All in all though, your post/argument goes somewhat too far.
As others have said, i too am sure that the raid-forces' problems you describe can be traced back to OTHER issues than DPS-checks and AEs alone.
On bertox we have no guild with EoK beaten (We are close finally), but RoS T1 down.
RoS T1 isn't that hard, you just have to pay attention, if everyone pays attention, you will win.
So yes read that, Highest Bertox has beaten, Kar'Zok EoK, Ros T1 3 raids.
Other guild has just beaten Vault, and Balance of Power.
It has a lot to do with skill level, paying attention, and playtime of the people, Wreckers (top bertox atm) plays AEST (aus timezone) so pool of recruits is near nil, other guilds are struggling for members as well.
Currently there is 3 Raid guilds on bertox, and I don't know how sustainable that is for how long.
There is a HUGE gap in playskill for most of the playerbase.
Imagine farming Lce, Droga, and Prince for a year and a half. You have to either move up or quit. Lately, I have seen more people quit or simply disappear.
That is a justified reply, and my thinking too. I think events should offer a way to mitigate either.
Simply because even if raidforces are expected to field a 54count (which many aren't already), they can't reasonable be expected to be "optimal" composition anymore, except for a few server-wide.
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