Looking for ideas for training people who are new to raiding

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Nightops, Oct 3, 2017.

  1. Nightops Augur

    I'm looking for methods or tips with helping to train people who are new to raiding. Has anyone developed ways to help people which doesn't require an experienced class person leading a new player one-on-one for several hours?

    Our player base changes like every guild in EQ these days, and because of real life demands, our player availability outside of raids changes even more. We have ended up with several classes without good experienced raiders to share their knowledge. I've been trying to help some people improve their play through in-game emails, teamspeak chats, and even taking some to the combat dummies in our GGH. Several other people help out with posting parses, directing class chat channels, and grouping while farming items/xp. However, we are at a point in raid progression where we can't afford to have people who under perform or don't know how to interact their class with the rest of the group.

    We place real life over the game, and accept that we do not raid end game. We are currently working on Queen and a large step-up is required to go from Prince to Queen & Vault. I'm not looking for raid strats, but instead ways to train / inform newer players to their class and help improve their interaction within raid groups. If anyone has developed something within Gina or on spreadsheets could you please contact me via a PM or share here on the thread.
  2. svann Augur

    If you have a website you could post class guides. There are guides out there but many are seriously outdated so you will probably be better off writing your own.
  3. Gundolin Augur

    Speaking only for Clerics, the class site here gives tremendous help. I can post my personal parse after a raid and there are several very smart people who can point out a lot of things I never thought of and help out a lot.

    Also if you can get Gina triggers for class specific actions they can really help. My wife's little voice letting her know when to recast for a beastlord was a help. Many who won't share raid specific Gina triggers are willing to share class specific triggers.
  4. Thrillho Augur

    • Play in third person - there is so much going on in a raid: mob positioning, auras, player positioning
    • Shrink
    • Remove names (/showname off, or /showname 1) - reduces lag
    • Remove corpses (/hidecorpse always is the one I use, but there are various /hidecorpse options)
    • Get GINA triggers for each event, which most veterans should be able to supply you
    • Get triggers for class-specific things, most class leaders should be able to supply you (for monk I have triggers for bard / shaman epics, cheetah, etc.)
    • Have common triggers - "Soandso has fallen to the ground" = FD failed, great for monks, and is the same text that appears when a mob knocks you over. Invis fading, DI popped, can't see / hit target, etc. Again, most veterans can supply a bundle of the common GINA triggers
    • Review each of your parses and compare it against others in a similar role - cast numbers, disc numbers, heal numbers, etc. What are you missing that others are doing? Or, what are you doing that others aren't? The class lead (or a veteran of the class) can help with this.
    • Review your parses from week to week - are you getting better or worse?
    • Experiment with various burn orders / combinations.
    Assisting / Targeting - Various methods
    • Hotkey /assist main
    • Set Extended Target Window <Number> to Raid Assist Target <Number> and click it as it switches
    • ETW# bound to key - G is bound to EWT1 for me, F to cycle through NPCs nearby
    Each raid force is going to have different roles for different classes. If you're picking someone up from a different force, make sure they know what their role is. Likewise, roles in groups vs. raids is drastically different.
    Have each person understand why something is done in a raid. Don't just give instructions. It shouldn't be "run here when X happens" - it should be "When X happens, a <nasty thing> happens and will <impact raid how>, so <action> to prevent that." This encourages people to understand the whole raid as well as future raids, and lets them adapt to changes on the fly. If you tell someone to run to the corner, but there's a nasty aura in the corner at the moment, what are they going to do?
  5. Zhaunil_AB Augur

    "Leadership styles" are quite different.
    And even though i am not in a leading position in any way, i am "charged" with mentoring new members/applicants.
    And i have only ONE rule really:
    "The only dumb question is the unasked one".
    And i encourage people to ask, be that in-game via tells or PMs or offline via the website.

    From my point of view, there are different aspects/angles for "training to get ready for raiding":

    1) general class knowledge
    While i expect from any app that he has a good grasp of his class already, i know there are... exceptions.
    (even in full raid gear, one wonders how sometimes)
    I do not believe in websites/guild-wikis too much, but those can provide a solid basis.
    Explain how to multibind, set up socials, stacking issues and the likes can all be sorted there.
    But many do not read this or lack the basic knowledge to comprehend what they read.
    So my preferred approach is practice - in the group game.
    The 1-on-1 approach you mentioned above that you want to avoid?
    There is no better alternative to that i think.
    A tank app i will for example group with and "make his life hard" on agro for example - not to be mean, but to test his limits for qualified feedback.
    Casters are easier in that regard, as their spell casts (number of casts as well as which spells they choose) is easily parsed.

    2) emotes
    Gina or whatever he might use is again the basics.
    Making sure the settings are correct (so one sees auras for example) is part of the "procedure".
    Only the applicant himself can improve - practice makes perfect.
    Here, i "only" take the time to point out positions (tankspot, safe spots etc) and "hint" that people make notes in their in-game map.

    3) performance-increases
    This is probably what you aim at and it's the most difficult.
    People tend to stick to their "old habits" much and are quick to find an excuse NOT to do something new or different.
    In these cases, only persistence and "leading by example" helps, i've found.
    Again, casters are the most easy ones to check for shortcomings/improvement-potential.
    Then there is the aDPS thing most groupers are not fully aware of - again a case of practice and proper mentoring.
    We have people drawing nice graphs for example.
    Showing for a burn of a certain class what best to activate when and followed by what...
    Parses can help, when they are not about the absolute figures but for example pit the spellcasts against each other.
    While i by no means claim to be "the best", the "amaze the natives" effect works quite well i've found.
    Again, grouping provides a fairly safe environment for that.
    And if it's about burning, pick high-HP mobs like the giants or golems in EoK.
    If it's about agro, any mob will do.
    If it's about tanking (especially multiples), then the lesser mobs (like sarnaks in FM) are good choices.
    Pack a good one and the one you want to bring up to his performance-level in the same group
    and have both "duel" it out.

    For other things, i again try to make use of the website by discussing a different approach or a class ability or spell or so.
    I believe in knowledge as the basics and practice to make perfect.
    Not in easy ways.
    And since a force is only as good as it's weakest link, i try to find out how people "tick" and what to expect/not to expect from them and if needed find a work-around.
    Sometimes, as sad as it is, one has to "bench" people for a certain event or "occupy" them with something trivial or more to their "liking" than what their usual "role" would be.
    Jhenna_BB likes this.
  6. CatsPaws Augur

    Put down the cell phone?:D
    Metanis and Gundolin like this.
  7. Thrillho Augur

    I love this suggestion. I've done this before with a new tank app and we put her life through hell. Our GL made sure to grab the top 3 non-tank aggro pullers and sent us all down to Chardok for some fun before raids for a couple hours. We didn't tell her what our plan was. She made it through the app process :).
  8. kinadafz Augur

    I'm not in a guild anymore, and when I did lead a guild it was waaaay back when, way back when not much was needed to know. Just dps until dead basically.

    But, in RL, I'm in Quality and IT. I constantly coach all of my employees to ask questions and never to assume anything. What happens when "tribal knowledge" is used? it's like the telephone game. It starts out right, then changes, then changes again, then it is trained to the next person, who morphs it again, and now your 5millionk dps is now 2.5millionk dps.

    Policies and procedures are in place for a reason, which is the same as a strategy in EQ raiding. When x, do y. If q, do z. Etc. Burn 1 when this, burn 2 when this, etc.

    All of these policies and procedures can be put into a general, overall manual...your guild's "Burn" manual or so. Basically, most all burns will be the same, or close to it. Yes, many burns depend on class synergy with other classes, but all of that can be outlined. Hell, make a nice flow chart to get the DPS class to the "burn" to use. Do you have a bard in group? IF yes, burn 3, if no, burn 4, for example.

    Once that Burn manual is in place, it, in theory, is universal. However, the trigger for that burn will vary. Like I said, I haven't raided in, well, 10 years. But, I read there are many HP locks in place, so just spamming all burns in a row will be great for the first 25%, then you are stuck with nothing. So, it could be like:

    For phase 1 of Queen (if there is a phase), use burn 3. for phase 2, use burn 4, for phase 3, use burn 1, for phase 4, use burn 2, then mob should be dead.

    To coincide with those burns should be the ADPS "burns". Like, burn 1 is a click of shaman epic with BST epic, (probably a terrible example), but you get the point.

    Once there is a clear and cut path of what to do when, then you can focus on the raid mechanics itself, which will be different for all raids I'm assuming.
  9. Jhenna_BB Augur

    TV goes off!! No one can watch Game of Thrones or Sunday Night Football while raids are going on!!
    Metanis likes this.
  10. Sissruukk Augur

    Toss the newbies into the dungeon, then slam the door behind them. Listen for the mayhem that will surely happen through the doors. Chuckle.
    svann likes this.
  11. Febb Augur

    What works well with training new raiders is pulling a bunch of mobs with a monk to them. They'll learn fairly quickly that way.
  12. CrazyLarth Augur

    teamspeak chats - can get classes in dififfent channels and some one talk about that class.

    Create a raid with them and do some Hunter or

    Parce the mobs and talk about Personal DPS vs ADPS.
    Find out what clickys their class is missing.

    you can take the raid to ROF T3 to farm the Shawl Raid drop and over time your raid coin will be enough for any to get Circle of (power, mana, Heath) RK 3.
  13. Aurastrider Augur

    Not sure if it has been mentioned but have the best players for each class in your guild start a class guide. You can designate one person to start the guide for each class and once they have it finished have them send it to other players of the same class to review and see if they can add any suggestions. Once it has been fine tuned send it to your newbie players and highly recommend they review it and make changes needed to improve their overall class play. I think this is the most important first step considering they can review an event until they have it memorized but if they don't play their class well to begin with it wont really matter.

    Once people spend the time applying the needed changes to play their class better see if you can get people to group in roughly the same groups they would play during raids. This will help these groups learn how to work together better which should translate to better performance during the actual raid.

    Require or at least highly suggest all participants in the raid to review the raid event prior to actually doing it. Knowing about the event before taking it on should help everyone anticipate things without hopefully to many surprises and it should also help them adjust any abilities or spells if there is something special their class needs to do during the event.

    Last but not least is just practice. Just like anything in life especially anything that involves a team mentality it takes time to figure out how to work together as a unit and anticipate what your fellow guildmates are going to do.
  14. lancelove Augur

    CLASS LEADERS. Its what they are supposed to do in your guild. You have to make sure your class leader knows what they are doing, have the correct keybinds etc., then they are the ones that /tell whatever with anyone that has to be trained on how to play that toon raidwise, and how / what to do in all of the encounters.
  15. CrazyLarth Augur

  16. slayerofbats Augur

    Short of making an interactive test, I think YouTube is the best option. Someone could make a video that explains the basics of raiding. Long YouTube video guides suck and very few people will bother to watch them. But you could explain all the most important basics in a 10 minute video. Have everyone you take on a raid agree to not show up until they have watched that video. No sitting during pulls, no standing in front of the tank when a pull is incoming, no healing the tank before the pull arrives (he might not have aggro yet), etc.. It doesn't need complex explanations.

    Once they know the basics, they can learn the rest as you go. At least they wont screw up massively and bring down the raid, because the video will cover all that. There could maybe be a second video for more advanced stuff.
  17. Stymie Lorekeeper

    That sounds like grouping basics to me. I know I'd be interested in raiding tips since I've been out of the loop for so long.
  18. Kolani Augur

    Personally, and this is just me from ~13 years ago talking, no voice chat until they know how to raid in text chat. Voice chat tended to make people lazy and let them drift away from the screen more since they could tab out and not have to be watching for raid instructions in channel. I'm not sure how it would be viable anymore, but cutting off voice chat used to be one of my solutions for raid discipline issues.
  19. yepmetoo Augur

    I don't get this. Is this the kind of garbage that explains why in a completely instanced game where gear is essentially the same for every player between guilds that beat the content 1st through 20th or whatever, we keep number 1 every year?

    This is a game. A game that is not particularly complicated. Being a jerk to someone doesn't "teach" them anything or "prove" to you anything about them.

    Put them in a group on a raid, compare their play with the members of the same class, analyze their spell/ability casts and timing, give them feedback as needed, and either 1) they get it and play better or 2) they don't get it and they get gone.

    If "training" is required that is more than explicating what to do and why, which should primarily be a 15 minute conversation, then the player just isn't very good.
  20. yepmetoo Augur

    Raiding tips:

    Healers = know your spells, understand when to weave spells that heal faster but dump mana, versus weaving spells that conserve mana, /assist heal, keep tanks on extended target, hotkey target changes to extended target lists, know when you can dps (druids mostly)

    Tanks = know your best aggro stuff, know how to take aggro quickly when needed, audio trigger other tank deaths, know how to cycle through extended to locate mobs not aggroed by a tank or locating which tanks have multiples, know how to use your self heals/runes, know when to dps, know how to drop discs when you need to switch from dps to tanking when someone dies, don't fight over aggro, someone else has it, move on, don't big d*ck aggro, know your abilities relative to other tanks (e.g. paladins need to know when to focus on healing, all tanks need to know when to dps, or cc)

    DPS = know your abilities, stacking, know the proper order to burn, know when you use your synergy abilities (timing), know how to coordinate alliance abilities, know what to change up when your adps varies

    cc/adps = know your timing, cast stuff on time, know your own dps lineups, know when to charm/mez/stun (these days mostly as part of script events, otherwise stuff is immune)


    Get the best gear in slot, but gear up with any upgrade first, don't wear garbage gear waiting for best in slot.

    Get the best augs, make a choice on what heroics and go for that one more than trying to balance.

    Get any achievements you need to make yourself better.

    I suggest doing gina audio triggers (I don't, but 99% of people do need them these days) and having them set up right for every event.

    Parse yourself every event. See what you can improve.

    You should always be waiting on cool down on spells and abilities. Wasted cast chances are wasted dps/healing for no real reason, just makes you less effective trying to "save" things for "emergencies".

    Pay attention. Probably most important. PAY ATTENTION.

    AE buffs and group buffs for burns, TIMING. Hitting IoG or epic or whatever 20 seconds late is just pouring dps down the toilet.

    LOG ON. What kills raiding guilds is 40 people logging on when you need 50.

    Don't waste tons of time on loot, this isn't 2002, gear doesn't mean anything (you can clear an expansion entirely in the last expansion's gear), and flows like wine (in 2 months of a 12+ month cycle you are saturated and gearing alts). Just get it out asap and stop wasting time.

    Don't waste tons of time on prep and set up. Your people should know what to do. Just get to the zone, drop a banner, get people in, give them 60 seconds and them engage. You can clear the entire EoK expansion in less than 3 hours if you just try to.
    Metanis likes this.

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