Lockjaw: Pre-Mediation Crib Sheet For People With Itchy Trigger Fingers

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Croak, Sep 5, 2015.

  1. Croak Augur

    It seems quite evident to me that the rotation guild officers think a few tells in the heat of the moment are sufficient before pulling the trigger and having 1 or more players (and even more accounts) suspended.

    The thing is...

    Petitions are meant to be a last resort to resolve rotation issues

    I don't know how much knowledge the people suspended this week had about the rotation. Every situation there are issues which call into question whether the approach made to a player infracting the rotation agreement was really in good faith, and whether there was sufficient due diligence in preventing what is ultimately a very sad consequence.

    Using a petition in regards to the rotation agreement is telling DBG that the rotation council has agreed that a person or whole guild need to be suspended.

    I am going to adlib 10 alternatives which don't seem to have been tried

    Leverage other relationships
    • /ooc Hey guys in < Guild Name >, could you persuade your guild leader to talk to me, because if I go back to the guild council having been ignored, and they decide a petition is warranted, you might all get suspended
    • /tell guildleader Can you suggest someone else you would prefer to use as a 3rd party mediator? - go on, phone-a-friend
    • /1 Hey general, any guys out there know Guildleader quite well - having some communication issues
    • /1 Hey general, any non-rotation member fancy trying to mediate a situation in Sky?
    • Explain what the rotation is and why DBG is now enforcing it
    • Explain that mediation is mandatory, that it is to his BENEFIT to stop what he is doing and actually talk because as a very very last resort a petition would have to be used to prevent additional harm and continued infractions.
    • Explain that it would make the rotation council really sad panda to have to use petition, because the only reaction from DBG will be immediate suspensions, possibly all players involved, and in the past it has included all guild members, even those offline

    • /tell guildleader hey man, I am not an "enforcer", I would much prefer to be doing something else but I have been asked to come here and talk to you to sort this out
    • Google for the lyrics to something like "Hey Jude" and send them in tells
    • /tell guildleader Look, I am just the messenger boy, someone else is going to be sending a petition. I secretly think some of the other guild leaders enjoy doing it, it is like a new toy, and they are becoming less hesitant to use it
    I would welcome more sensible suggestions
  2. Makelite Augur

    DBG is the one causing all this strife, they backed up this nonsense and are allowing players to run the game. I'm pretty much done with it tbh.
  3. Gremin Augur

    Yup that is me...firing WMD's from my keyboard, screaming YEEHAW as I do it!
    lockjaws, Protocol and Simone like this.
  4. Weregild New Member

  5. Porygon Augur

    Real quick question...

    You say that rotation guilds cannot be trusted as mediators (even if their guild has nothing to do with the situation) because it is in the interests of the rotation guilds to have non guided or non rotation guilds players suspended. (Forgive me if those aren't the exact words, but I believe it's the jist).

    How do you explain allowing someone that's not in the rotation mediate a dispute between two parties. Couldn't you say the same, the non rotation guilds benefit from a precedence of people not being suspended for breaking the rules?

    It seems like you're putting alot of trust and faith in one group of players, but because the other group (the actual rotation guilds) don't see exactly eye to eye with you, you just don't trust them.

    It's confusing really.
    lockjaws, Seiffil and Simone like this.
  6. Necromonious Augur

    reported for making multiple threads on the same non-issue of some guild no one cares about's suspension
    lockjaws, Sheex, Simone and 3 others like this.
  7. Steampunk Augur

    I care about suspensions. Suspend them all, the big and the small! Let Cthulhu sort them out.
  8. Crystilla Augur

    Did we really need one more thread on this topic? Obviously if folks got banned, it was done with DGC's blessing here.

    Someone not associated with the rotation at all will not understand the fine points of the rotation, arbitration rules, etc. That's in no one's benefit.

    Ultimately, this guild knowingly broke the rotation, was asked to talk about it and refused to stop and therefore showed no reason why additional avenues to 'reach' them should be made. They knew about the rotation already and broke the rules on purpose.
    lockjaws, Simone and Iila like this.
  9. Lokomotiva Elder

    Reminds me of the small town I grew up in that turned into a herion infested town. People know the law, may not approve of the law, but still do what they want... and then you have parents saying their kid meant well and didn't mean any harm to anybody.

    Deal with it. People who want to and not to do. They can simply ask someone in the rotation if they can clear their content on their days. But that's asking too much to send a /tell because in 2015, people are idiots. Let's stop playing babysitter to rules that the entire server abides by whether they like it or not. If you want a change; go through the proper channels....it works oh so much better.
    Simone likes this.
  10. Zhutuak Augur

    The question on the table that every one of you keeps avoiding is the actual line in the sand. You should be rotating actual raid content and not group-able content.

    I am not saying do away w/ the rotation, I am saying find a better way. Right now, you seem to me to be doing it wrong in as much as making the content "open" to as many people as possible. There has been no compromise moving away from day/24hr/mandatory guild join (many can not field your req. 36 yet can kill the content) at all.

    We do not seem to have certain mage groups terrorizing the server like we did. It might be time to ease the rotation...
  11. Lokomotiva Elder

    I do agree with you there. The problem is, is that said groupable content drops keys for the raid content. I always fall back to this: but just because Rallos Zek or Coirnav's trigger is groupable; is that open season as well? Just pleasant arguement here; not confronting anyone. Realistically I am more along the lines of the casual than the ones in rotation because my guild is not yet raiding.
  12. Shimm Lorekeeper

    That's incorrect: Conversation with Overrated.

    lockjaws, Simone and Lokomotiva like this.
  13. Lokomotiva Elder

    Sounds legit to me. He has the technology to receive /tells but doesn't have the technology to send one out. Such an ostrich its head in the sand, he is. He meant well and didn't mean to harm anyone. Just let him go. Kids will be kids.
    lockjaws likes this.
  14. Brickslap New Member

    As I see it Overrated directly attacked MIM.

    I say good for MIM for protecting their content from the rotation poachers.

    Overrated got what was coming to them.
    lockjaws and Simone like this.
  15. Lokomotiva Elder

    Inwas being sarcastic buddy. MiM did what they had to do. Overrated was way in the wrong here and I wouldn't blame the innocent members from being upset.
    lockjaws and Simone like this.
  16. Brickslap New Member

    Ohh, alright. I didn't mean anything towards you was just posting my opinion. I'm not the best when it comes to reading sarcasm <3
    Lokomotiva likes this.
  17. Croak Augur

  18. Croak Augur

    You make some great web pages that are a "resource"

    I split this from other posts that are specific to an incident as I thought it might make a constructive resource page with a bit of a community effort.

    In multiple situations the "mediators" have failed to stop the player killing mobs... that is the ultimate goal.
  19. Porygon Augur

    No, the goal of the mediator is to act as an impartial party during a disagreement between 2 other parties. The mediator does not have to make either party stop. Mainly get the facts and make a ruling.
  20. Croak Augur

    Sorry the answer to your quick question wasn't so quick.

    The part of "mediation" that the rotation guild members seem to have a huge issue with currently is making the person stop the infraction. The people infracting don't trust them.

    The police for instance have special mediation programs to teach officers how to reduce infractions and stop them escalating, but this is just a computer game.
    A person who is in someway trusted is a far better person to get someone to back down from a polarized position.

    GMs used to fill that role in EQ... when someone hears that a GM is being contacted, they think that that is some kind of real mediation rather than mandated execution.

    I have worked really hard on Lockjaw on trust, trusting people by sending them stuff by parcel upfront, no requirement for immediate payment etc... that trust gets reciprocated all the time.

    I am not the only one either... lots of people sell stuff on Lockjaw and have built up trust with 1000s of people, and who knows, say with the phone-a-friend, the friend may even be a member of a rotation guild, but not one of the leaders.

    The rotation guilds probably would then have a problem with dealing with all the real "mediation" they are expected to do afterwards. It is all well and good spending 2 weeks discussing the Snubs incident between Darth & Gulfein, but they are just not set up to handle tons of mediation with 3rd parties.

    There really is a huge incentive to use the WMD option and just wash their hands of the filthy casual for 3 days.
    I will say that when someone does back down and leaves, there does seem to be, from some guilds an attitude of letting "bygones be bygones" but it isn't universal - there isn't enough cases to really see a pattern.

    There are also rotation members with votes that have suggested that if an unguilded player is proving difficult to talk to, they should just be petitioned, primarily because there isn't any other form of punishment available. Rules are not being applied equally. Punishments are not in line with the infraction.

    Non-rotation people can be a lot more patient

    Example of patient mediation starting 25th Aug 4:18pm CEST (7am pacific) and still ongoing
    • I found a mistake in the rotation for Sky. I pointed it out in the private chat full of people who could immediately correct it.
    • After 24 hours I pointed out I should really be pressing a button on a WMD, but I won't and offered an olive-branch
    • It took 32 hours to eventually fix 1 cell of a spreadsheet that potentially 20+ people had access to.
    • At that time I extended the olive branch with a without prejudice settlement offer, which would have easily cleared up most of the Sky issues and it could have all been blamed on me for catching them on a technicality. I didn't want to punish the person who made the edit, but to get a very minor concession from those who let it continue, deliberately focused so it wouldn't cost them any of their own time in Sky.
    • The people in the private chat concentrated on things like whether anyone was actually harmed, whether the infraction had even happened yet, and whether it affected me, or potentially anyone considering applying for a rotation spot. I offered to provide Roshen with proof of harm if any member insisted, and for him to determine harm. This was after 56 hours of mediation
    • 1 week after infraction as I hadn't received any request to provide proof of harm, I am slowly moving forward with providing a summary and asking for summary judgement from Roshen - honestly I have lost tons of motivation. The harm is still significant.
    • As all members of the rotation council are the defendants, my only recourse is to someway submit the issue to DBG... but my preference is still to submit that to Roshen, not DBG CS because it was a minor issue... but it is a minor issue specifically listed on the Ragefire rules with specific punishments.