Level and stat caps.

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Evertrek, Aug 11, 2021.

  1. Tucoh Augur

    Tucos guide to going from scratch to retired raider:
    1. Pick a server with the most raiding guilds (bristlebane)
    2. Find what classes they need, besides bard.
    3. Create a nonterrible 3box with a bard, plate tank and whatever based on what they need.
    4. Weasel into the guilds discords and talk to them like a human being, which is something surprisingly few raiding hopefuls can do. If you're obnoxious just skip this.
    4bonus. Ask to listen to raids, both helping you learn and proving you'll show up.
    5. Level and git gud
    6. Once you're not going to screw up the basics, join a public raiding scene.
    7. Gear / AA / aug up and look for an opening for a raiding guild as you perfect your skills.
    8. Raid for a couple months, scoop tons of loot instead of it going to regulars 4th alt and then disappear because you only thought you wanted to do EQ raiding.
    Metanis, Dre., Winnowyl and 5 others like this.
  2. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.


    I played GoD to CoV on Phinigel TLP - now I dont expect every TLP after will get all the way to live but some will for sure I reckon.
  3. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    Comparing a fresh 115 alt with a fully decked out CoV grouper is a pointless, even bogus comparison.

    Maybe compare a decked out ToV grouper vs a decked out CoV grouper, that's a more like for like comparison to make.

    In any case looking at just the raw numbers you will miss the context of the stat increases without the right understanding.

    Using Bard boots for these comparisons.

    Think "percentages" when you look at upgrades.

    ToV to CoV - CoV tradeskill gear is better than T2

    T1 - 6.6k v 7.7k = 17% ish
    T2 - 6.8k v 8.4k = 24% ish
    TS - 7.3k v 8.9k = 23% ish

    Now let's run those increases backwards across some recent expansions.

    TBL to ToV - ToV tradeskill gear is better than T2

    T1 - 5.3k v 6.6k = 24% ish
    T2 - 6.0k v 6.8k = 14% ish
    TS - 6.4k v 7.3k = 15% ish

    RoS to TBL - TBL tradeskill gear is better than T2

    T1 - 4.5k vs 5.3k = 19% ish
    T2 - 4.9k vs 6.0k = 23% ish
    TS - 4.7k vs 6.4k = 35% ish

    EoK to RoS - RoS tradeskill gear was slightly behind T2

    T1 - 3.9k vs 4.5k = 15% ish
    T2 - 4.2k vs 4.9k = 16% ish
    TS - n/a vs 4.7K

    I'll not compare TBM to EoK as it would take a lot of work filling out TBM's LDoN -esque template gear with augs to get to relatable numbers and there are multiple ways to build gear with that system that complicate like for like comparison. TBM also introduces Type 5's

    While it is not truly consistent as there are some shifts between tiers and how much of a jump they are on prior gear of the same tier and also the augments from each expansion need to be considered too it's a reasonably clear pattern of increases, there's no sudden and massive stat inflation going on when you look at the way gear has been raised across those expansions.

    But since you seem to think these massive increases were EoK onwards lets do what I truly love & prove people wrong with (admittedly approximated for expediency) facts, feel free to be more exact in your own calculations if you wish.

    Once more, with feelings....

    CoTF vs TDS

    T1 2.5k vs 2.7k = 10% ish
    T2 2.6k vs 2.8k = 10% ish
    T3 n/a vs 2.9k

    RoF vs CoTF

    T1 2.1k vs 2.5k = 20% ish
    T2 2.2k vs 2.6k = 20% ish
    T3 2.3k vs n/a
    T4 2.4k vs n/a

    VoA vs RoF

    T1 1.4k vs 2.1k = 45% ish
    T2 1.6k vs 2.2k = 40% ish
    T3 1.8k vs 2.3k = 30% ish
    T4 2.0k vs 2.4k = 20% ish

    HoT vs VoA

    T1 0945 vs 1390 = 45% ish
    T2 1120 vs 1625 = 45% ish
    T3 1300 vs 1815 = 35% ish
    T4 1480 vs 1995 = 35% ish

    So going all the way back to the Heroic era House of Thule, the increases per expansion are nothing near as oddball as you claim once you actually grasp the percentage view, if anything the increases each expansion have actually trended downwards in complete opposition to your belief.
    code-zero and Svann2 like this.
  4. Svann2 The Magnificent

    People finished gear progression in a few months. If that wasnt there and the only progression was expansion zone progression the expac would be done in weeks - like before new year.
    Skuz likes this.
  5. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    The other thing I will add is this thought

    On Scars of Velious you had 1 item per slot - so 18-20 items

    In Claws of velious you have 3-5 items per slot so 60-100 items

    That means a 3-5 fold increase in the quantity of things with stats on them over 22 years

    The idea of a stat squish with how EQ has time-sinked itemisation is ludicrous, with much smaller expansions 2021 vs 2001 the design has altered to farming a much larger number of items.
    The itemisation & thus stats design of 2001 would be inadequate to keep busy players of 2021.
    code-zero likes this.
  6. Skrab East Cabilis #1 Realtor

    This is true. They abandoned the world building philosophy in favor of a progression model.
  7. Svann2 The Magnificent

    The progression model has been the design choice from day 1.
  8. Skrab East Cabilis #1 Realtor

    No, they intended to build a world people would want to live out a fantasy life.
  9. Nennius Curmudgeon

    At launch in March of 1999, were any zones locked behind keys or quests? I didn't start playing until after Kunark came along and I am curious.
  10. kizant Augur

    Nah and when plane of fear first opened it didn't even have a level requirement.
  11. Nennius Curmudgeon

    Thank you.
  12. Rauven Augur

    Here's a novel idea. Lets remove the level gap limit on gaining exp with other players. Because lets face it, trivializing content by bringing a high level is no different than outleveling the content and trivializing it anyway. At least the former requires two people in theory.

    That is something Daybreak can easily do, with a hotfix.
    NameAlreadyInUse likes this.
  13. I_Love_My_Bandwidth Mercslayer

    Level and Stat squish are something I had advocated for a while back. Until, that is, someone took the time to explain what that really means. Nearly every zone, mob, weapon, mission, and raid would need to re-tuned. Oh, and classes would need to be completely retuned. Oh, and Spells. Oh, and AAs. Oh, and abilities. Still with me?

    So even if the EQ1 team committed to such an enormous project, it would take years to complete, and would likely be years of retuning.

    As if that's not enough to dissuade someone, the cost is far greater than any potential gains.

    Ssdar and Svann2 like this.
  14. NameAlreadyInUse #CactusGate

    With respect, in order for this to be relevant to the discussion, Phinigel would have had to maintain it's early-TLP levels of popularity and ease of grouping for new players throughout all of those expansions you mentioned.

    How many other new players started on Phinigel when (or after) you did, or were you an exception?

    For the last few years, how is the new/returning player experience on Phinigel any different from a Live server?

    Also, Truebox.
  15. NameAlreadyInUse #CactusGate

    But is this the way you want it? Do you prefer it this way?

    If you had your choice from zero to 100%, how much of your EQ time would you want to spend on replacing the same items and gear you already have with an incremental upgrade, as opposed to any of the other things you have done in the game?

    How much time would you want (or expect) the devs to be devoting to this upgrade process?
    Wulfhere likes this.
  16. Svann2 The Magnificent

    TBH if they made enough zone content to keep us busy for a year I would might trade gear progression for that. Id be willing to try it. But they wont. They dont have the manpower for that, and they never did. Zone creation takes way more manpower than gear creation.
    NameAlreadyInUse likes this.
  17. Dre. Augur

    It's not a terrible idea but it only addresses part of the problem. Give a man a fish, and you feed him today. Teach him to fish.... you see where I'm going.

    The BIG issue with EQ is that "teach him to fish" has an expiration date when someone takes defiant gear into lvl 75-80 content and they get absolutely curbstomped. Even the best 80+ bazaar armor is tissue paper against the content that drops it (let alone upgrades it) and "box 3 characters" is not a solution that's going to work for most people.

    Enter the usual "Get 85 and you can group with me" and in a short period you have a character whose gear is utterly obsolete. Maybe they have gear in the bank they can use in 20 levels but they have no way to get themselves there. Plus now they're faced with catching up on spells and learning AA that they never had to use. People think they are helping but they're actually digging someone into a hole.

    Now, if upcoming players could earn powerful gear by themselves they could turn the tables on the content. Not 70+ defiant junk (extravagant combatant, LOL!) but the best-in-slot raid gear that already exists. Gear that already has a currency and value attached to it that everyone can earn - TRIBUTE.

    This could be implemented tomorrow. We just need the vendors.

    The next big thing would be access to a couple of key max-level buffs (HP, DS, HP/Mana regen) without dependence on luck, charity or hours of AFK. That could be one NPC, too.
    NameAlreadyInUse likes this.
  18. Tucoh Augur

    My favorite solution to this is a squire-type system that lets the lowbie morph into a level appropriate character where they can play with maxed out characters. Not contribute as much, but also not get one-shot and can earn rewards that help them either at their native level or while squiring.
  19. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    Try that on an older TLP server and it is worse than live. I also play on Mischief and a can confirm playing on a TLP server that is less than 3 months old there is an awful lot of players.

    Players want different things when they start out/return and they will get different things out of the game. Those who just want to have fun and play with friends (new or old) don't worry about getting to the end game where there are more players. Those who make friends easily will have a different experience than those who struggle and those who demand help. Those who want to get to the end game and nothing else will have a hard time getting there quickly unless they play on TLP servers where the end game is no where in sight until years later when 20+ expansions have unlocked dependent on which server you pick.

    Live to raiding CoV is going to be a damn sight quicker than Mischief to raiding CoV. If they don't care which expansion they are raiding then TLPs are the way to go.

    If you use your head you start on an unrestricted TLP server and level up to that servers max, go to the next unrestricted TLP server and level up to max and then hit live servers at a much higher level having used the TLPs as a ladder to get there. I'm not sure of rule sets on all the TLPs and which expansions they are all on but that is one way of doing, I know they did a post a while back of which servers could transfer where. It may take longer than if you went direct to a live server, but you should always be able to find groups at or around the top level of that server.
    Skuz and Elyssanda like this.
  20. Flatchy Court Jester

    Because as Bruce Hornsby said "Thats just the way it is"!

    I have to ask why do you think it should just be handed out now and why are you so deserving of this?

    In real life if you bust your A your whole life and get a nice house you get a sense of pride from your accomplishment.

    Now the Govt comes along and hands out nice houses to everyone, JUST LIKE YOURS. Kinda takes away from the shiny dont it?

    Again I am a simple troll, dont expect much.
    Metanis, Elyssanda and Randomized like this.