Level and stat caps.

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Evertrek, Aug 11, 2021.

  1. NameAlreadyInUse #CactusGate

    The hardest thing about EQ is separating chafe from the wheat. There is far more chafe than wheat, probably on the order of 1000:1.

    A stat/level/ability squish would remove all the redundant and/or useless stuff. Celebrating our skill at a complex game is one thing, but celebrating our mastery of a Rube Goldberg world isn't as cool. New players don't shy away because it looks hard, they shy away because it looks ridiculous.
  2. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    EQ looks outdated and suffers from a lot of systemic bloat that is for sure, but a stat-squish is a waste of time, and it doesn't address what EQ doesn't do well, people are looking at a stat-squish as if it was some magic-bullet or panacea solution to what ails EQ - but it is not.

    A huge amount of things could go wrong in the process of a stat-squish, it would take too long and it would be too expensive to pull off, and it could just end up wrecking EQ.

    The effort required to do that would be better spent on making a new EQ game that has that kind of design structure baked-in from the start.
  3. Corwyhn Lionheart Guild Leader, Lions of the Heart

    I don't think you get the idea of these games. Yes you grind the same 5 levels over and over but peeps play the game to progress in most cases. End that progression and the game would likely drop in active subs substantially.

    I realize it sounds silly to be on a never ending hamster wheel but its pretty much what people want even when they complain about it.

    A few years ago they had most missions from the last few expansions continuing to scale in difficulty and people rebelled because a a fair sized portion of the playerbase likes to play content after it becomes easier from gaining levels. Some folks love end game challenge but some folks actually want to revist stuff when easier.

    Whether you are forced to camp new gear or get new levels it is the same mechanic. Each expansion to remain current you need to progress again.

    It is not about how much resist or hp you have it is about feeling that you are progressing through the game. So yeah I guess you can pick a different progression mechanic but since it is not how this game has been for the last 22 years it would be a steep hill to climb.

    Easiest solution, that is apparently not easy, is to create upgraded heroic characters.
  4. NameAlreadyInUse #CactusGate

    While there are lots of areas that EQ could improve, I disagree with your assertion that a stat-squish doesn't address something important: EQ's daunting requirements for a new or even returning player. I think a stat squish would address that issue, allowing new & returning players to experience current content alongside existing players.

    It would make EQ a much more enticing game for everybody who isn't already a current EQ player.

    Players want progression, sure. But EQ doesn't really offer it, as you say yourself: EQ primarily offers a non-progressing hamster wheel, that allows you to repeat the same "progression" over and over.

    The actual "progress" you make (like achievements, expansion zone progression, quest rewards and unique new abilities) would remain the same, with or without a level/stat squish.
  5. Corwyhn Lionheart Guild Leader, Lions of the Heart

    I have been running a casual guild for almost 22 years. Since we welcome folks even if they plan on eventually apping to a raid guild. I see a lot of folks who want to app to a raid guild but are not ready to. I see some folks get to end game and end game raiding pretty fast after being away 10 or more years THEN I see some who take longer. I have yet to see someone be an exceptional raider who couldn't get the levels and gear pretty fast and start raiding.

    Now I agree that as long as someone is willing to learn that they can become a decent raider but they need someone to teach them. And yes these are the folks who might take 9 months to become raid ready but they need the time to become a better player/re-familarize with Everquest too. And if they join a mid tier raid guild trying to get numbers they will get help in leveling and becoming raid ready.
    Skuz likes this.
  6. Corwyhn Lionheart Guild Leader, Lions of the Heart

  7. NameAlreadyInUse #CactusGate

    Doesn't that just seem absurd, reading it in print? Who in their right mind would start a game that:
    • They have to pay $15 a month for.
    • They will probably be playing alone for 9 months before they can enjoy the real game or play with other players.
    • The existing players all feel that this is a normal and acceptable way to "play".
    It's really not about the existing players, you guys are all happy with what you're being sold and don't want anything to change. But I think not changing definitely puts a limit on the game's lifetime, if no new players - or even returning players - want to play the game.
  8. Corwyhn Lionheart Guild Leader, Lions of the Heart

    What is absurd is what you said.
    No one has to pay 15 dollars they have FTP and you can do the majority of your trip from level 1 to 115 FTP. Plus I run a casual guild. I see the non raiders at work and play. It doesn't take most folks 9 months to group if they are playing regularily Real players play and enjoy Real EQ from day one.
    And a LOT of folks consider grouping to be the central part of EQ not raiding.

    I see folks come back to the game a lot and some are raid ready very quickly in nothing like 9 months.

    And yes Everquest players find this is normal and acceptable because it is normal and pretty much acceptable. No one who REALLY wants to raid should take 9 months to get there unless they instantly want to be in ROI or MS.

    I suspect 2-4 months might be a more realistic timeline to end up in a raiding guild and raiding. IF you are willing to put a "little" effort into it and are good at following instructions.

    Now if withing a couple weeks you want to be raiding in a top raid guild you should probably look to another game unless you are a pretty good player. Yeah I have seen it done but it is not the usual state of things.
    code-zero likes this.
  9. Tucoh Augur

    I can tell you from years of leading raids and handling raiding guild recruiting that someone coming up to you and saying "hi, i have a trash character and don't know anything about the game but can prove I'll have high attendance, am teachable and won't cause drama." Is exceptional and can make it in most raiding guilds in any game, let along EQ.

    Most applicants aren't teachable, won't have high attendance, and / or cause drama. The problem is identifying the exceptions, especially those who will have high attendance three months from now. Just about every returning or new player will ghost after a few weeks of raiding once the nostalgia wears off.
    Ssdar and NameAlreadyInUse like this.
  10. NameAlreadyInUse #CactusGate

    That's a joke, right? FTP is only good to maybe level 60 and it is a completely solo endeavor. Do some people continue to plod along without spending money? Sure, just like there are people who log in and only chat or sit around playing in their inventory all day without ever leaving PoK.

    But most people would not do that.
  11. NameAlreadyInUse #CactusGate

    I think this is an important observation.
    Metanis and Winnowyl like this.
  12. Corwyhn Lionheart Guild Leader, Lions of the Heart

    Yes and no. EQ has progression in that each expansion a player can become more powerful then the past expansion. You definitely progress. BUT the progression cycle within each expansion pretty much follows the same pattern.

    Folks got upset when they kept heroic adventures from past expansions scaling to current levels of difficulty because it was robbing folks of the feeling of progressing if old content never became easier.

    If all content scaled and never got easier then you would be right that EQ doesn't have any progression but a level 115 can do a lot more then a level 1 because they have "progressed".
  13. Rauven Augur


    Players are dumping this game for harder and complex content in harder and more complex games.

    Everyone else is giving paragraphs of information that everyone in these forums, including myself already knows. The people who are leaving know that stuff too. They don't care about it. They don't care to do it.


    Because it takes too long to play the game. The real game. The social game. Look at this response:

    You can't find a group. So just go solo. That's what all that just said. We're playing MMORPG's and only the EQ community would suggest to go solo stuff. With this smug thing of 'you should always be improving yourself'. And why not? He solo'd for months, everyone should solo for months.

    If you can't get a group, then learning all that stuff is pointless. That's how other players, even great ones typically look at EQ. And like NameAlreadyInUse stated, it looks ridiculous. It looks cobbled together. It looks half-a...ed. It looks unpolished. Why? Because it is.

    And it doesn't need to be that way. They need to focus on restructuring the mechanics and features of the game to bring the players together. Not arbitrarily send them on their own to just figure it out eventually.

    Everquest's main strength is its social nature. The fact that you can chat with the people in your groups and feel like you're hanging out. But live EQ goes out of its way to keep that part of the game away from the new, the returning, and even the old players (making alts) as much as it can.

    So getting the game under control so the extraneous levels, and required progression in obsolete content (if you can solo/molo stuff that was designed as group or raid content, its obsolete), and fix the stats we have instead of making new ones.
    Barraind and NameAlreadyInUse like this.
  14. NameAlreadyInUse #CactusGate

    Looks like we now need to define "progression" further ;) You aren't wrong in describing one form of progression...it's just not a fun form of progression, and as your hamster wheel analogy implies - it often doesn't even feel like progression.
  15. Corwyhn Lionheart Guild Leader, Lions of the Heart

    You must not play the grouping game much. The problem here is you seem to see the group game as ONLY a way to get to raiding. It just is not that for most folks.
    Now do me is is absurd to pay 15 bucks a month if you only enjoy the game play twice a week or whatever your raid schedule is. But that just me. For others it may seem less absurd. I mean if your guild is raiding several times a week I guess it could be worth it.

    How long do you think it would take you to get to raiding if you started today with a brand new toon and didn't know anyone. Its okay if it would take you 9 months to get there I just think a lot of players don't have that much of a problem.
    Nennius likes this.
  16. NameAlreadyInUse #CactusGate

    The reason people become boxers and raiders is because the "grouping game" is so dismal. There is usually a month or so, after a brand new expansion is released, where the top-end players group up consistently. But non-raiding players have extremely limited grouping options, and new "group" content in most expansions is barely accessible - if at all - to most non-raiding players.

    Unless this trend changed in the last couple expansions (I haven't been playing), your guild/server would appear to be a unicorn in EQ if it is different.

    I can answer with 99% confidence: I would not last more than a couple hours in EQ if I were a new player, without a significant history with the game and player community.

    And over the last couple of years since I stopped paying/playing, even as a player with significant EQ history, I am stopped dead in my tracks whenever I have tried to log in to say hello and see if I want to play again. You start with the hope of recapturing lost glory and nostalgia, but you log in to hobbled toons that can't hold their own against any meaningful enemies, not even some gray ones! You can't even get a taste of what you thought you were before. And you can't play with anybody you might recognize, and even if you pay the minimum $15 you still can't play with them until you level up and catch up with the expansion content you missed.

    Basically, even the prospect of returning requires a relatively huge investment of $ and, more importantly, time (mostly spent alone).
  17. Corwyhn Lionheart Guild Leader, Lions of the Heart

    There is simply ZERO evidence of players leaving EQ for harder more complex games in any kind of numbers. Go on general chat on any server and ask how many folks are looking for a more complex and harder game. YOU are looking for a more complex and harder game I guess and that is cool you look for what you want to play.

    Some players dump games because that is what they do. They get bored and move on. That will never change.

    You are right that one of EQs strengths is the social game. Thing is that continues even if people box. A lot of folks join guilds mainly to socialize but we do it whether grouping or not. Fact is if you talk to someone in guild chat instead of group chat it is still socializing.

    EQ has a bad low level grouping game because folks level too fast. I have run one of the largest or the largest casual grouping guld on Xegong for quite a while. My is guild popular as a casual grouping guild and yet I find it impossible to keep a large enough low level population for grouping because folks level too fast so we never end up with a large amount of lower level toons for grouping. Most of our recruits are lower levels. For decent grouping at low levels on live you need to slow down leveling to create a significant population of low levels who want to group. That would piss a lot of folks off.

    And to be fair with how fast leveling is I think they should just include a free level 85 toon with every new subscription on Live servers. That would be much more helpful then them randomly giving out free heroics ever few years.
    Nennius likes this.
  18. NameAlreadyInUse #CactusGate

    I think Rauven may have been referring more to new and returning players, as opposed to current players.

    I don't disagree with anything you described there, but I believe it is an argument for normalizing content. Especially your suggestion to give out a free 85 toon for everybody (despite 85 being far too low to be relevant any more): that is basically conceding that all pre-85 content is a waste for new subscribers. Normalizing content would make it all relevant again - regardless of player level.

    EDIT: In fact, giving out a free 85 toon for everybody is normalizing content, just as the OP suggested :D
  19. Corwyhn Lionheart Guild Leader, Lions of the Heart

    Rauven said leaving not that they weren't trying the game because of that so not sure that is what he meant. And he seems to be saying things are too easy in EQ. Does that really support your point? You seem to be indicating things are too hard.

    As I stated it can appear to be daunting to level up but any new player who socializes and asks questions will find it doesn't take 9 months.

    I like to see everyone happy as much as possible. Experienced players or those new or returning on a budget know you don't NEED to get a level 85 heroic and that leveling is no big deal. Problem being if you don't ask around or know it seems hard catching up.

    My suggestion addressed the issue of folks "thinking" it is too hard to get within range of grouping with 115s.

    And in my guild at least level 85s are relevant. That is where real grouping tends to start. AND it gives folks some time to learn the game.
  20. Corwyhn Lionheart Guild Leader, Lions of the Heart

    How long do you think it would take you to be able to raid as a new player. Not how long would you last but how long do you think it would take you to get to be able to raid?

    Not last more then a fee hours? Really? You expect within a couple of hours to make friends, ask around, learn the lay of the land and know whether to stick around or not by then? Seems pretty demanding but each to their own.

    I think most people who pay for the game and then subscribe will give it more then a few hours.

    So where do you get this enormous investment?

    There is no huge investment of money for sure. So what 120 bucks for a year even if you take 9 months (which is possible but not a likely timeframe in my opinion). 120 bucks.
    So time then. Assuming you ONLY enjoy the game raiding then yes you have to invest some time leveling up to get to raiding. If you don't like that it may take you 2 to 4 months to level/aa up to get there then yeah this is probably the wrong game for you. I am not sure how many progression games that let you do end game in a few hours would be worth playing though.

    Time investment is sort of key to EQ. The more you actively play (i.e. invest time) the more you get.