Level and stat caps.

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Evertrek, Aug 11, 2021.

  1. code-zero Augur

    Since I don't play WoW I'm unfamiliar with the process but from what I've been told this basically renders the previous expansions gear and abilities nearly useless and thus forces players into the new expansion. That's what I've been told by friends who have quit WoW anyway
    Yinla likes this.
  2. Cicelee Augur

    Well you are wrong. They are not competitors. This is not as if WOW is Wal-Mart and EQ is Target. This is more like, WOW is Wal-Mart and EQ is Dollar Tree. Both are retail stores that cater to different clientele, just like WOW and EQ that cater to different clientele.

    EQ is 22 years old. I would venture at least 25% of its playerbase have been playing for at least 17 years, maybe a third. Its veteran players are a different demographic and mindset than the standard WOW player. It is a game that could very well be done within the next couple of years. Many players realize that the game might be at the end of the road and want to be there on its final journey.

    Again. Let EQ be EQ.
  3. Rauven Augur

    I could see a level squish for everything post 75, but not before. TLP servers would get wrecked in something like that. Live servers wouldn't be affected much because lets be honest. Its all solo/molo/box before 110 anyway. There's not much content being used save for the random achievement based boost to stats or resists or mercs.

    I can't imagine many EQ players actually enjoy sitting in empty zones with a merc or set of boxes for a few dozen levels. Some may say they do, but they're working at getting to the current content because that's where the new stuff is. And even if they don't intend to group/raid at the highest content, they're at least trying to get to do some of the stuff they haven't done yet.

    But also you have many of us who are trying to be social and right now the only way to do that and level is TLP. Can't really do that on live because of the 100+ level spread between new characters and old characters.

    If I make a character on live, and join a guild that is doing current expansion content. Realistically without a PL how long do you all think it will take before we can play together? Realistically of course. Not this hypothetical, 'they should help you get caught up'. Sure maybe a group here or there with an alt. But actually playing together?
  4. DeadRagarr Lorekeeper


    Not for level scaling however.

    What you explained right there happens in the game right now. Players level up DRASTICALLY fast and if they are a subscriber you know what happens?

    Auto-Grant Happens.

    You end up literally gaining SO many abilities the entire zone can feel it, and new and **RETURNING** players are going to see that and immediately feel overwhelmed.


    **EDIT**

    As far as using old content, they already can do that in a way w/o as much back end issue. ToV showed that players can and are willing to quest for XP gains. In theory they could retroact and add some sort of scaling for progression for older content. Completing House of thule Partisan rewards all under 110 players 25% w/o xp potion/LOTD into a level etc - even if its grey. Post 110 you have to do ToV+.

    That essentially makes older content useful, being a leveling character in 105+ you can do level 85ish content w/o much issue and still level from it.
  5. Xanadas Augur

    It's called mudflation (because it appeared first in MUD games decades ago). Every stat-based game that tries to continually expand and grow will suffer from this.

    WoW was slightly innovative in tackling this problem when they implemented "item level" in their itemization. This lets them essentially just move a slider and "compress" content. This is what they've done with their stat squish and level squishes.

    EverQuest is definitely long overdue for a stat squish, but I doubt they've been designing in that direction.

    Basically -- don't hold your breath.
  6. Stymie Pendragon

    Also, even though WoW managed a stat and level squish it made most all mobs the same difficulty which is pretty boring. When you gain a level, so do the mobs around you, and item level affects it as well. Got a new sword huh? The next a_skeleton just got an additional 390hp. Although I agree that EQ mudflation has gotten out of control, I don't think there is a cost effective way to roll back the dial.
    Corwyhn Lionheart likes this.
  7. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    "Happens in the game right now" ?

    Not even close dude.

    Right now what AA do you get at 51 from autogrant?

    Then you get a few more at 55, not even all of the SoL & PoP AA are given then.

    Now imagine getting all of the AA in the game at 55, everything except the AA from the new expansion that has level 56-60

    The difference is probably akin to comparing a 2021 Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 (760 BHP) with a 1969 Saturn V rocket (160,000,000 BHP).
    Corwyhn Lionheart likes this.
  8. Tatanka Augur

    QFT. Well said!
  9. Tatanka Augur

    Here's one. Been solo/boxing since about 2006 now. I still enjoy EQ, and don't have any plans to play it any different than I have for the last 15 years. And personally, I don't think it's all that rare.

    Even though everyone complains about lack of content, they generate it faster than I can keep up with it. But, as someone above said, many EQ players have been here for many years, and consequently, are not nearly young any more. So, between family commitments, jobs, and other interests, I play maybe 5-10 hours a week. If LFG were actually happening, I'd look for others to play with, but we all know that's really not an option. And with a casual play schedule, finding others to regularly group with is not an option.

    But here's the thing. I spend ~$45/month on EQ. If I average 30 hours a month, that's $1.50 an hour. Hard to beat that anywhere. So, I think there may be a lot more of us than you think.
  10. Rauven Augur


    I think you've been institutionalized. And don't take that as an insult. Because you said if LFG was happening, you'd want to use it. It is actually. Just not on live. You said you play 5-10 hours a week on EQ. On TLP I can spend that much per day, but in a group, if I wanted. And I have not felt the need to run a second account.

    But I understand TLP isn't for everyone. By god some of you have leveled a dozen alts through that content already. I get it.

    But a method to help squish the levels down could potentially grant a method to help people group with one another in a meaningful way across a spread of levels.

    As for there being many like you. I think nearly everyone is like you. They're solo/molo/boxing is a symptom of the system in play. Not their first choice.
    Stymie likes this.
  11. Tatanka Augur

    It's got nothing to do with TLP or anything else. That's all the time I have to play EQ.

    My point is, even if you can't play EQ "their way", it's still a fun game. And worth every penny it costs to sub on a few accounts.
    Corwyhn Lionheart likes this.
  12. Accipiter Old Timer


    You threw me for a loop. I thought you were going to compare the Shelby to a 1969 Corvair.
    Skuz likes this.
  13. The real Sandaormo Augur

    Think I just sighted another EQ is almost done post somewhere back there.

    Be like if Blizzard decided to get rid of WoW ( it's biggest money maker ) just because it was old. Most companies don't shoot themselves in the foot like that. Daybreak or whatever the new name of the company is isn't going to do it either.

    This opinion brought to you by some dude on the internet.
    Coagagin, Elyssanda and Skuz like this.
  14. Skrab East Cabilis #1 Realtor

    I think ATVI will be more ruthless with WoW, if it stopped being a major profit center. They have some new mobile games launching and WoW TLP servers are super profitable. WoW Retail has extremely high labor costs and I don’t doubt that they would maintenance mode WoW. ATVI is always looking to cut costs.
  15. Iven Augur

    The original poster (Evertrek) got some point because there is a problem with increasing numbers (HP, dmg points, stat points ,etc.) but basically that's it. It's really hard to handle this and I had to screw most of the ideas that came into my mind regarding this. Two of my remaining ideas are:

    1. Stop the level-up hamster wheel at lvl 120 forever. However this is an important part of the original game concept and the current numbers will still be high.

    2. Add an option to let the player characters die in a small quest or NPC dialogue "forever" and grant them a second live where it does restart (reincarnate) at level 1 again but with some remnants of abilities, spells and power. This will not be reversable but an upgraded shroud system could maybe offer something similar for a compensation so that (only) older expansions are still accessible and doable.
    • The then current and all following up expansions can only be accessed by the PC after it has received the 2nd live status and a flag. Older content will still be accessible. "a decaying skeleton" is incoming !
    • Achievements, names and titles do remain.
    • Most melee discs will remain but maybe at an reduced power level.
    • Most spells and AAs will be stripped off. Important inherent and QoL stuff like Pet Discipline does stay. Also Run Speed AA but at a reduced rate just for older content.
    • All equipment and bags will remain but most gear will become useless because of their level requirements. It might be needed to add more level requirements to alot items and mounts.
    Tell me what you think about my ideas ! I already know that some of you will hate them. :p
  16. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    You can already do this, just start on a TLP server.

    Half the player base are happy to keep rerolling at level 1 every time a new TLP launches, the other half would more than likely quit if they had to start again from scratch or levels got condensed.
    Corwyhn Lionheart and Skuz like this.
  17. Nolrog Augur



    Uhhhhhhhhhh.
  18. Rauven Augur

    The idea of level locking at a much lower level isn't something new, even to Daybreak. DCUO for example has a max level of 30. Once you reach that, your 'level' is determined by your equipped gear.

    This is one of the failings that WoW and FFXIV actually have. They feel the need to raise the level cap on every expansion. This has a very nasty detriment that is now coming home to roost in WoW and FFXIV will see the pain of it probably in the next few years.

    This detriment is that when you raise the level cap, you need to design content for leveling. This content takes like 80% of your development time for the expansion. You need to design wide open areas, a central narrative story to push the player through it, and get everything balanced for every level along the way. 80% of the development goes into that, but how much time do players spend in it? Not 80% of their time playing said expansion.

    Players get to max level and then spend the majority of their time with the other 20% of development. Which is why things feel 'unpolished' and empty.

    Everquest 1 and 2 have actually handled this problem better than other games to their credit. For example, once Ruins of Kunark came out, they took a step back and released Scars of Velious and Shadows of Luclin, two content filled expansions that focused a bit more on endgame than Kunark. When they decided to raise the level cap again in Planes of Power, they did it only by 5 levels.

    This could be done better though.

    Imagine if Ruins of Kunark did NOT raise the level cap to 60. There was actually no need to (even with its current balance). The gear could have been setup so that when you did some of the first parts of Velious you needed stuff from Venril Sathir, Trakanon, etc. And when Velious became example, then VP would simply be opened to anyone.

    This of course is all hindsight and assuming this stuff is instanced. Because of EQ's early open world nature, you did need the levels to spread everyone out a bit. But with 120 levels, and hundreds of areas, this is spreading everyone out way too thinly. Which makes for a very lonely game.

    I know some diehards are saying they prefer it like this. But I'm still skeptical. I don't understand the point of a MMORPG and the cost of running a server for players to just run solo. It sounds like they should just make private servers a feature of the game if we're going that route. Which is something maybe they ought to consider.
  19. Zaray Augur

    [IMG]
    Skuz likes this.
  20. Tatanka Augur

    No interest in either one.

    I think EQ is fine the way it is. I think the main issue is between those who finish all content every year, well before the next expac arrives, and those who basically never catch up. For the latter, this whole discussion is pretty much moot.
    Skuz likes this.