I didn't say any poison I said they can pass out poisons. Dps wise I think this is best one they can share. They also have other options like tank aggro. It also can set you up to use alliance when only one rogue present if you have other melee and tank using them in a group. Spider's Bite Poison Strike XI Target: Single Range: 200' Resist: Poison -1 Reflectable: No Focusable: Yes Casting: 0s 1: Decrease Current HP by 6271
Now, whilst I will agree, to some extent that rogues perhaps need a bit of a DPS boost insofar as 1H piercing attacks go, I have played rogues extensively since EQ's debut. As a returning player, currently playing casually, the damage I do with my new rogue is far above and beyond what my main could do say back in 2004. With that said, I can't compare to what has changed with other classes since I have only returned 3 weeks ago, but that said, I leveled a brand new rogue, solo (with a tank merc) to lvl 62 in those three weeks. Now, mind you, that was unheard of back in the day... there was no way you would ever solo a rogue past lvl 20-25 and even grouping/raiding you would have never achieved that lvl in that short a time, not a rogue. Now, let me ask this, how many rogue class players here choose to circumvent their AAs to gain the next level once they hit 55-60? If so, then you are under-developing your rogue. At least by 59-60, you should be breaking to switch XP to AAs, maxing out your available class/archetype and appropriate general AAs before moving onto the next lvl. Once you gain the next lvl, switch back to AAs and so on and so forth. My 62 rogue, using bottled haste (Alacrity IX) and applied poision (Bite of the Shissar IX or X?) wiped the floor with most mobs that are lt blue to dark blue even without my merc. Now with my merc, acting like a rogue should, my backstab maxes at over 90K (Due to the 'Anatomy' AA) fairly regularly (for some reason that I don't understand, haste above 150% tends to trigger 'Assassinate' quite often, haste really shouldn't cause that to trigger). Double backstab triggers pretty regular, if I were to guesstimate I would say 20% of the time at least. I do general BS dmg between 156 (low) and 2K (high) and I am only using lvl appropriate defiant or combatant's gear atm. I think many players need to really take some time to develop their class and understand that rogues are definately a challenging class, but a rewarding one once you understand them. I recall some players not even knowing how to and/or not using the rogue's evade skill during combat when they take aggro from the tank. This is standard rogue trait and is under utilized by many rogue players as are many of the rogues skills. USE POISON REGULARLY ROGUES! Lol, your daggers should never be dry and make sure it is lvl appropriate poison or your targets will just shrug it off. Just my two cents.
While you're not wrong... Most of what gets discussed in a thread like this is the max level, max AA raiders looking for new stuff to try to push for the class during beta. We've been playing rogues for years (Mine was rolled in 2004, main changed to in 2008. I've played EQ since 2000.) so we've pretty much got the rogueing down. But there's always a push for more dps, or at the very least, more useful stuff. We play with poisons, position ourselves, grind out our levels and AAs. And rarely even think about rogues that aren't max level. While that's probably not fair to up-and-coming rogues, those same rogues are growing into the framework that has been set up by other rogues over the years.... thru threads like this.
Whilst you started only a year after I did, certainly my post would not be targeted toward you. I am just hearing a lot of what I think may (or may not be) nonsense. I am a returning player who played rogues extensively since 1999, taking a hiatus from 2005 until recently. However I keep hearing how rogue DPS has taken a hit and how they are turned down in groups etc and I have to wonder whther or not it is actually the class or the player. My new rogue seems almost overpowered to me, compared to what I recall from the past. So what would you say? Are rogues nerfed or is it the player that is nerfed because they simply haven't invested the time and effort into learning this challenging class?
A lot of the folks in this particular thread are end-game raiding rogues. They're looking for things to boost us in the raid game. Rogues are solid, but we're getting our butts kicked by berserkers. That's just a thing that is. As a general rule, crappy rogues don't get into end-game raiding guilds. In the group game... eh, we hold our own. I know a lot of raiding rogues, and quite a few grouping rogues, just box their entire group. Myself, I either molo (myself + healer merc) in EoK or under, or duo with my druid roommate. Often with both of our mercs out, so he can pretend he's dps. *shrug* Other than outright dps, there really *isn't* much we're bringing to the group table. Some of us can pull exceptionally well, but if there's a bard, monk, or really good chanter, then we usually don't. Anything past EoK, I tank like I'm wearing tissue paper, so I can't pinch tank. I don't heal. Other than Shadow's Flanking (5% to damage from the rear of the mob for the entire group), Thief's Vision (boost to accuracy), and Blackguard's Synergy (3proc damage attack), I don't bring any adps. When we have proper support, we can put up some serious numbers. But we don't get full support in groups; and even when we have it on raids, there goes the zerkers. pewpewpew. So it's really kinda a mixed bag. Right around beta each year, one of these threads pops up, and rogues brainstorm for what we can try to push for to get ourselves better positioned for the upcoming expansion. Sometimes we get things, more often we get fluff. That's where a lot of the complaints are coming from.
Hmm interesting. This is unfortunate because rogues by design are a support class which means maybe they are under utilized to their full potential? Yes, guess that is a question because we used to be a premier DPS class for raiding. But since I am returning, having not played since 2004/2005 it is yet hard for me to tell whether this is a class issue or player/class familiarity issue. Now bare with me, as I am coming from a different time, but rogues were always the most challenging of classes to get right, Some people say we make horrible pullers but they would have been dead wrong back in the day. My main was a very sought after rogue, on the Seventh Hammer, in raids back in the day due not only to my pulling abilities but due to my DPS as well. So when I hear rogues suck as pullers I say hogwash, i was the first as I recall, to pull Cazic Thul and resist DT back in 2002. It was a shocker to all as I had pulled him and his minions several times and always died relying on rezzers to get me back in the game promptly. Obviously the level cap has been raised since I have been on hiatus ( for fourteen years!!) Now with that said, my current rogue (lvl 62) seems a bit overpowered by what I am accustomed to. She can friggn tank to a certain degree, and I am not accustomed to that. I don't think rogues should ever be intended to tank in the least. They should be, by all means a high DPS support class. I cannot attest to current higher lvl content as I prefer to lvl my toon the old fashioned way (a lvl at a time ...no free "autogrant AAs even though I have a sub) building my toon from the ground up on my own is more rewarding than free instant gratification BS ... but that is just me. So, once I arrive at the lvl 100-110 destination I may have a little more to add. )
I'm not trying to be rude or derogatory, but as someone who hasn't played 85+ it's obvious you lack the knowledge and experience necessary to make any sort of suggestions about the state of rogues in the high end game. Your statements make this pretty obvious. And rogues are a support class by design??? Please do wait until you are 100+ preferably 110 with enough AA to make suggestions on rogue changes. Otherwise you're only adding word salad to the discussion.
You are only reiterating what I have already stated... I will quote my last sentence "So, once I arrive at the lvl 100-110 destination I may have a little more to add." And "yes" rogues ORIGINALLY were designed to be a support class, so I stand by my statement there. What they have become since 2004/2005 I do not know and have fully made that clear. So, let me pose to you a question. Do you feel that rogues are nerfed? End game or otherwise? If so, then why do you feel that way? I am only saying that at my current lvl I do not see it, but as stated would say more once I have attained higher lvls. To insinuate I do not know the class is insulting and disrespectful, whether you meant it to be or not, considering I exclusive played many rogues during the early years of EQ, but I have tough skin so , "meh". I began a rogue the day EQ was released, failed with the proper combos, deleted him and continued that path until I knew the class's ins and outs and got it right. We didn't have gobs of internet info in those days to give us insight and had to feel and flesh our classes out, all classes, and it was that generation of players that fleshed those toons out. My statements are merely my experience and observations from the past vs now and trying to understand all the pissing and moaning that rogues are, somehow, 'nerfed'. I am merely relaying my experiences and asking that one simple question... are rogues nerfed? Now, to say I have nothing to bring to the table because I haven't been given a lvl 85 toon and do end game raiding or whatnot is just a bit disrespectful. Unless you were there from the beginning, if you've looked up anything on the internet about your class, etc etc or EQ in general you have learned what you know from guys such as myself, so show a little respect. ;o)
Thanks Winnowyl. Just the response I was looking for. I recall when there was talk about introducing Beserkers as a DPS class. Many of us were opposed because we felt we didn't need another DPS class. They were overpowered upon release and I think they were nerfed a bit, but sounds like not by enough, or the upkeep of other DPS classes hasn't been balanced out. There was also a lot of opposition in the community, back then, to most hybrid classes, such as SKs.
You say zerkers kick rogues butt. You def wrong. I am more likely to see a roue at top compared to a zerker. Each person are lobbying their own class and not telling the truth about status.
I'm an old enough player to remember when rangers could tank nearly as well as SK's and paladins. And remember the genesis of the ranger jokes, when Kunark was released and they got creamed by everything. Zerkers and rogues and monks have all had their day on top; for a couple years it was monks that were nearly impossible to beat. In my guild alliance, no, the berserkers don't top me - but I've seen parses from lots of other guilds where the zerkers are beating rogues by a not-inconsiderable margin. These parses come from high end raid guilds. Maybe the problem doesn't exist in mid-tier. Maybe someone is doing something wrong. *shrug*
man if your seeing zerkers getting out done by rogues....something wrong with your zerkers my friend.
Yes, someone posted a graph earlier detailing DPS parses by class and it certainly did not seem like rogues were off from Zerkers by a lot. If the data is fairly replicable, I'd say rogues look like they are still holding their own as a DPS class. I also, think you hit the nail on the head when you say "Maybe someone is doing something wrong".
You are relying on 14 year old info to try to relay your experiences. That literally means you have nothing to bring to the table when discussing rogue changes that effect end game. It has nothing to do with respect it has to do with your lack of knowledge of the class beyond 14 years ago. Do you really think the game and class would be the same after all that time? Your contributions, knowledge, and what not literally mean nothing in today's game. When you are higher level, have the necessary AA, and decent gear to see how the class performs your contributions are more than welcome. Also saying rogues were designed as a support class makes me question your rogue knowledge period. Your definition of support must be vastly different from mine and what support means in EQ. Rogues were designed as a melee dps class, not support.
IMO, the 'modern' rogue doesn't begin until around level 80, minimum. That's when we get things like our AE mez with memblur, and a couple other nifty things. At 85, we start with the Assault line (new spam ability that is a backstab), and it goes up from there. Eventually, we have several spam abilities that are also backstabs, with Massive Strike AA to do even more. Twinstrike comes into play in the upper levels, as does Twinproc. It's a totally different feel than the early levels of rogueing. I DO wish we would eventually get an upgrade to Twisted Chance and Frenzied Stabbing, but at least the AA focuses for them keep them relevant. And at no point in the history of EQ would I consider a rogue to be a support class. Thief's Eyes didn't come in until the upper 60's. We have no aura. We got Theif's Vision in the 90's. Shadow's Flanking and Shared Stealth at 105 during RoS. That's the closest we get to "support". We don't even have a dang aura. >.<
First off, for Rogues and Monks to be considered a bit more competitive, the whole current paradigm of the dps test for most everything has to get dialed back a bit. We all know that Rogues and Monks have that so called obsolete utility that forces them to live in the shadow of Zerks, Rangers or even SKs. Anything that delivers a massive burst is what today's game is about. Hey, it could be worse. We could be necros! No class is as woefully screwed as a necro, or a paladin even.DBG just loves to pick winners and losers. Still right now rogues are most commonly seen in the Baz selling collection things that they were also created specifically to gather (which someone even suggested should be nerfed because its unfair). If there has been any uptick on rogue character creation, its for that.Shiny hunting. Meh! Monks...well....whats a monk.... Unfortunately, Zerks were created to do just one singular purpose and that is DPS. Nothing else. With nothing for the most part to steal or locks to pick or traps to disarm (Yes someone will mention ST raids)....and tanks doing the majority of pulling in the group aspect (or really good enchanters even) to bring masses of mobs to be toasted down then even monk pulling is a time waste, never mind rogues. Single mob pulls = too slow. Especially if someone is boxing two zerks or two wizards with a chanter...so on and so forth.You know, the kind of play today's game is about. The stuff that put rogues out to pasture. Rogues are just screwed and if you are reading this thread at all its because you really ENJOY your rogue, don't want to retire your rogue for whatever winning classes DBG picks, but ultimately rogues KNOW they are screwed. If pure DPS is the only defining metric than screwed is the only way to put it here. They won't ever have us on par with a zerk or any other one trick pony DPS class. We all know the uproar that would ensue: "But, but but Rogues can do that thing! You know! That thing that game design hasn't found important in years! I need boosts to stay on top because DPS is all I do! I need to be number 1!", says more than likely Zerkers. And that zerk would be right. Hate to say it. So all rogues can hope for is to mitigate the screw over to a "not as egregious level" at best. Maybe less ADPS dependence for starters. Rogues may not even get a good ADPS arrangement at all in a raid setting. It would be nice to be able to shrug and say: "That's OK you can group me with rangers and someone's box healer! I'll be fine". Maybe some aura or whatever. Who knows what the minutiae on that would entail but something that doesn't require a bard, a shaman, BL etc and a Zerk planetary alignment of a grouping to always put out good numbers would be a fantastic start. I also agree more buttons to mash sucks. Either cut reused timers down on some things even more or up their potency. Balance them out by maybe making them tremendous endo hogs in some cases. No one rides for free. For now Rogues have to accept that even an exceptionally played and geared rogue with all AA's is going to be trounced on parse by an equally skilled and greared/AAed zerk. Rogues used to rely on the Zerk being dead (lol!)mid burn to surpass them, but Hdex is a real bugger on that. It helps out with tanking and any zerk that stacks AC/Hdex....like most all melee do, will be fine as long as they are paying attention.
Talking shop: We need a level 115 poison from our legs for next expansion. Who remembers master sketch and assassins seal? Incorporate those into a better poison. Increase the drop rate or sell it on the vendor. I don’t care which. Change XYZ to bring “auto attack DPS” to 300K. New skill levels? Better weapon DMG calculator? New/different timers? Don’t care, just up the numbers. Bring back Escape that WORKS. We need Endurance. Fix the AF Hdex /vs/ HStr disparity. Go put Arnold Swartzenegger in the ring with a ballerina and see who walks out. Every class in game can pick locks and disarm traps now ... lets fix this with some “rogue only” stuff. It’s not like I’m asking for “Track” ... or am I now? Lesson in toxicity .... why has this been forgotten? Give it a big boost and make it level 115 worthy. Beg? Disarm? Intimidate? Pick Pocket? All broken skills/abilities IRT current content. Some mounts (rugs) could EASILY be used with Illusions AND backstab! If snakes can kick, I can backstab on a magic carpet ride. Range DPS of 20k is insulting. Can rogues throw daggers or not? Speaking of daggers, it’s not VOA anymore, how about a new summoned ammo? Lastly : a 60 second group SoS would be nice.
Only a novice but rogues like a lot of classes have big skill or coordination gap. The difference between group and raid supported and chains for auspice, circle of power, dim-witted, pinpoint vs not or self only make all the difference in the world. It can hold the class hostage for something most never get to see. Daggerslice line changed to -1 timer, self buff instead of a disc and able to be used in combat. Frenzied extended to 60s. Possibly a new Frenzied disc with more to it. Massive strike isn't really a massive strike anymore imo. More weapon proficiency and assassin's weapon mastery. Weighted strikes needs a bigger bump.
