Learn the Enchanter Class before you tamper with it

Discussion in 'Casters' started by Maxxbuff, Jul 28, 2015.

  1. Maxxbuff Journeyman

    I am one of the original enchanters... you know the ones that were Mages that specialized in the mind description...The current description is so far from the original it isn't funny. I see, yet again, you are now tampering with formulas that have been in place 10+ years (deep sleep) and you are not improving things. Instead, you are making the same post-POP errors that SOE made that drove nearly every great enchanter out of the game.
    Enchanters are not bards for casters, if we wanted to play a bard, guess what we would have done.....
    Chromatic haze changes, were completely unnecessary and high end enchanters know, that when we are doing damage, it is nuke after nuke, not stuns, and 1-2 dots per mob. Thanks to the limitation of placing all stun spells on one timer, NO ONE is casting stuns very often, at this point, it is almost useless. This was one of the most useless changes ever. As far as the latest patch, I can also provide logs, that someone in programming has made a mathematical error.. it does not proc more regularly nor consistently, if fact it is far less than the stated 8% it was prior to the last patch. Think about it, if I'm casting a stun or dot, then that means I'm not casting the dd spell, thus it is not more regular at all. It is just nonsense rhetoric.

    IOG has been around for many years, and yet there was a completely unnecessary alteration to do what? Make the enchanter less valuable in group and raid content?

    This is the perfect opportunity for developers to learn a life lesson.. blowing someone another person's candle out does not make yours any brighter. If you want to balance classes better, then do so by giving them the correct abilities or lowering mob's AC.. not bothering a class that is not out of balance. We were doing moderate second tier caster damage, below that of wizards, mages, and necromancers... and somehow you want us to be closer to warrior damage? And what is almost comical is the fact that it is the 3 dps casters that benefited the most from the previous abilities of the enchanter.

    Call me crazy, but NO ONE CARES about button reduction as a priority, we care about game play. That should be your priority.
    ImSorryButIHadTo and Jordis like this.
  2. Random_Enchanter Augur

    None knows if the haze changes were unnecessary or not beyond the one or two enchanters that play on test, and I doubt very much that they played with it. Reasoning behind this is: they CHANGED how the spell critical % worked. It all stacks now as opposed to overwriting.

    Yes when enchanters do damage its chain nuking, or chaotic mez nuke-nuke. But enchanter are not wizzards, we arn't always nuking. Why not enjoy being able to do something for your group (and yourself) for something that your going to do anyways?

    IOG, and every other critical damage increasing buff got dropped 100% to compensate for the 100% a player has normally.

    I suggest you go back to enchanter school on this one. I constantly have PBAOE stun and single target stun up. they are not on the same timer and between them I can stun lock any stun-able mob with plenty of time to cast a 1.5 sec or lower cast time spell in addition. Stuns are used, procing haze off stuns again is good. end of discussion.

    I can also 100% assure you that the developer that made these changes knows how to play an enchanter, and knows full well what we, as a class, are capable of.
  3. Maxxbuff Journeyman

    I am considered one of the best enchanters in the entire game. Even have the stats to back it.
    As far as chromatic haze, this change didn't improve the effect on the group, at all. We are not wizard and mage familiars, and that is what this patch is attempting to make us from a damage perspective. Again, if you want to play a bard, go role one. The abilities should not stack, that coding was no accident. Why would classes doing 300kdps (wizards/mages) need more stacking? That is an imbalance. Why reduce the 80k dps (Enchanters) class to make them better? Rich get richer and the poor gets poorer in your world?

    Rarely, if ever would a good enchanter need to use a single target and PBAE stun. You are in a very low raids or group if you need to stun lock a single mob. The way chromatic haze used to work, it benefited everyone, not an ability to make the parse toppers even better. That is exactly what it is used for now. It was a much more balanced ability as it increase the enchanter's damage to a much higher level, and if you play, you know it was no where near a wizard's dps, so you can stop with the far off wizard comparison. This ability's current configuration does not benefit the entire group, as the Enchanter is part of the group, and there may not be a dps caster in the group. The same goes for IOG, which has been around for years. IOG formula was well balanced and didn't stack for a reason.

    This will only lead to the exact same situation Enchanters were in before, where they were simple buff bots and alts for raids. Classes need to be diverse and have more than a single role, especially on raids. That is how other games have surpassed Everquest, using their exact same format with the balance of abilities in mind. This may be too high level for some, but the big picture from a dps standpoint should be, "The dps of a mercenary should never exceed that of an Enchanter," as it will decrease the level of cooperation, collaboration, and cohesion.

    And lastly, it is odd that you would think a developer who's "primary" focus is to reduce buttons knows how to play the class like those of us that do it, every day, from solb through Arx completion.
  4. Casidia Augur

    He's right.
    The last time i used single stun...come on, if your raid guild knows what it's doing you don't use it at all.
    And the few AE stuns, there are 3 events where we used them. Out of 8 or so.
    And in those only for a short period of time as well (like Ar4 when mobs rush the raid, only for that phase and it doesn't matter if Haze procs during more or less trash clearing).

    For once they had it right, playing a Chanter felt good again because your activity, attention span and skill level made a difference for your groups dps.
    Now it's back to barely noticable, i bet.

    Between clueless people, and those who think Chanters were too OP (had they played one for up to 15 years now, they would realize why some good times were well deserved!), and Devs who focus on useless changes instead of content, and boring raids, and repititive mechanics this whole thing turned into N00b city.
  5. Silv Augur


    #1. Stats =/= skill level.
    #2. Guild =/= skill level.

    Now that we've gotten that out of the way... if you are such a veteran member of the Enchanter community then where have you been? You just registered a new account here. Have you been helping the cause the past few years under an alias? Because of all the people that have been working to get the class to a good place, your name has never come up!

    If you were 'the best of the best' then you would know that IOG wasn't nerfed; there was a global crit adjustment and abilities like IOG were altered to reflect that; it's technically better now due to stacking changes.

    This seems like an indirect jab at Dzarn who has only done things to help us (more or less reversed the deep sleep nerf and about a million other things. I'm fairly confident he had nothing to do with the Haze nerf or other changes you seem to perceive as negative.

    I'm not sure if this is supposed to be a troll post or what... but I can't imagine many would take you seriously.
    Iila, Shiea, Xikteny and 5 others like this.
  6. Maxxbuff Journeyman

    Well I have been a contributor since therunes, and swapped to a rogue when we had no use for more than 1 enchanter, you know, the do what is best to keep your guild in the top tier thing, or maybe you don't.

    As far as your stat comment, I'm your your best in the game by stats. And by game play according to most, so put that to rest.

    Not sure what you consider a nerf, but a drop from 250% to 150% is simple math, try it.

    I did not need to send messages through this board since I knew Craig Knapp, on a personal level, and could send my input to one I thought mattered a bit more.

    Yes, I registered just yesterday, and that has nothing to do with how well I know my class. I have read each and every aa, spell, and all of the raw data for them. This is how I help keep our guild as one of the top guilds in the game.

    And now seeing how you want to make it a personal issue, no wonder more do not join the forum and contribute.

    But keep up the good work of making sure you have what you need to raid HOT
  7. Maxxbuff Journeyman

    You know what... this isn't about me, or you two. This is about my class, and how to keep the game going and have fun. Let's cut the personal stuff, because it is just a pissing contest, that will not go anywhere.

    Here goes... the mathematics of it all.
    Pre-IOG/Chaze changes - Full burn (Arx Event)
    Our dps/casts/ healing logs are publicly posted.
    Wizard dps: around 260K with enchanter
    Magicians dps: around 250K with enchanter
    Necromancer dps: around 180k with enchanter
    Enchanter dps: around 79K

    Post-IOG/Chaze changes
    Wizard dps: around 280K with enchanter
    Magicians dps: around 260K with enchanter
    Necromancer dps: around 190K with enchanter
    Enchanter dps: around 55K

    Deep Sleep, is not impossible to land on a raid boss, so that is also an issue that I read is being fixed.

    These numbers cannot be disputed... it is a nerf.

    Taking the damage away from the lower dps class is not a benefit. The idea is to keep the balance, not improve things for the Wizards, Magicians, Necromancers, and Druids at our expense. Again, we will not always have a dps caster in group, and there is no reason for the group to suffer because of it. This is again attempting to make enchanters into bards for casters, which is basically the new description of the enchanter but NOT the original that I started with.

    Most of us high end raiders like the balance, if you want to give those other classes more dps, then increase their spell damage.
    Jordis likes this.
  8. Igniz Augur

    I'd be most interested where you pulled the numbers from, favourably with a real parse consisting of real numbers and most importantly: the duration of the fight.
    sifonin likes this.
  9. Apoc Augur

    Am I missing something or did you not get 100% crit mod baseline added to your spell casting fury. I was under the impression that most nukers got this Druid Enc Wiz MaG Nec rng bst
  10. Random_Enchanter Augur

    Just for the record, in my mind a GOOD enchanter reacts to what is needed and provides it. If that happens to be permanently stun locking a mob down, they do that. if that happens to be casting direct damage spells, they do that. if its debuffing/mezzing/buffing/charming what ever, they DO IT.

    And most assuredly, a good enchanter is not constrained by an idea of 'that spell/ability is worthless' because they know every spell, ability, idea has merit and its place to be used.

    No, we did get this.

    But they can, you have not provided us any log files, duration of fight, spells cast on fight, abilities stacked etc.

    Before the change
    I know for fact on Vitio i parse ~ 100-120k DPS during a 3-4 min parse. I could even get up to 150k DPS
    I know that the wizzys in my group did ~150-160k DPS, and the druid did ~ 110-130k dps during the same time period (druid parsed all of 2 DPS over me in one run)

    After the change (and melee hot patch) every one was doing about 10k DPS better than before except for me and that's because I fudgered up and found out that Intensity of the resolute overwrites IoG (I mean really? wasn't everything exposed to stack now?)
    Silv and RPoo like this.
  11. Apoc Augur

    I blame renaii for not telling you we tested that.
    RPoo likes this.
  12. Reval Augur

    Good work, now that we've established that I am the greatest, let us get down to business.

    This is a really tough topic to address if you let it be, but it always boils down to that people want the most power they can get. In your case, it is that even over your guild being more successful. You want to be the one with the power. Your parse shows that your dps group as a whole gained 40k dps minus you, who lost 24k dps. If I just raided, I would want this current setup. You obviously group a lot outside of raids.

    I can relate, I used to group a ton on my enchanter. Now I only do it when I need aa's to burn on glyphs. When people want help, I play my beastlord instead (which is also max aa). The reason: the beastlord is more powerful in much of the current content (especially content that other people want to do). Sure there are niche cases where you end up with a lot of caster dps, but in general I can do more dps on the beastlord, and tank stuff well enough to get by. Our crowd control ability is nice, but in many areas you end up with just 1 add and a pet can tank that anyways. Charm has been relegated so much, and with the nerfs to haze etc.. I don't view enchanters as a good grouping class for much of the content out there when compared to other classes, ESPECIALLY when you hit the high end of the game, and still group.

    As a note to the devs, charm was the most powerful ability in the game at 85, and possibly also at 90, but many people did not seem to complain too much because it was not as flashy as other things. You could parse the pets I had back then, they were beating raid geared players by themselves on zek and on blue servers. But that's much more subtle somehow than when a wizard just ONE SHOTS A MOB in current content like they could and probably still can do in DH group missions. Also, charm made people work for the power that they could attain, vs just having free stuff. Here's my comparison. Charm: you used to constantly have to watch your pet, if charm broke you had to handle it fast or possibly kill people. You could even result in a net loss of dps if you did it badly. Illusions of Grandeur: no risk free dps. That one mechanic was probably the most interesting mechanic everquest ever had (but to be fair, part of what made it interesting was that it was powerful).

    I think what this person wants and doesn't know he wants is for charmable mobs to dual wield again. I'd be fine if you made charm not have haste, and not stun the mob, or made that version of charm the non-/-5 level charm, and the level 105 charm not do that, and allow dual wielding. Then he would probably be happy with decent dps (although nowadays with player dps scaling the way it does, charm wouldn't be outdoing players).

    But now that I mentioned charm being powerful on the forums, I guess it won't happen, and the history books will just have to leave Reval as the best enchanter of all time! hahaaha!!!
  13. Casidia Augur

    Come on bro...if you were close to the (good) wizzies in that simple Vitio fight, you either need better wizzies who put in more effort or your Raidleader made groups of 3 Chanters for you.

    Same goes for the other guy who says Mages did only 10k dps less than their wizzies, that's just your special case then and not how it went for other guilds.
    Or Necros much lower than Mages.
    Where is all this coming from?
  14. RPoo Vox.Dandin told you, 'your better then me =D'

    Random_Enchanter could you teach me how to be awesome?! Anyway here's my recent Vitio parses
    Before (some of these were split raids):
    6/7 - Praetor Vitio in 110s, 401074k @3646127sdps --- Renaii 11388k@103523sdps (127949dps in 89s)
    6/15 - Praetor Vitio in 100s, 388018k @3880183sdps --- Renaii 8543k@85432sdps (98198dps in 87s)
    6/22 - Praetor Vitio in 114s, 397875k @3490136sdps --- Renaii 12606k@110581sdps (131315dps in 96s)
    6/29 - Praetor Vitio in 132s, 440008k @3333396sdps --- Renaii 10155k@76931sdps (85335dps in 119s)
    7/6 - Praetor Vitio in 88s, 405123k @4603670sdps --- Renaii 9630k@109430sdps (117438dps in 82s)
    7/13 - Praetor Vitio in 155s, 162243k @1033392sdps --- Renaii 16665k@106149sdps (107518dps in 155s)
    7/20 - Praetor Vitio in 112s, 83718k @747481sdps --- Renaii + pets 12401k@110723sdps (113771dps in 109s)
    7/27 - Praetor Vitio in 82s, 279238k @3405347sdps --- Renaii 10479k@127793sdps (149700dps in 70s)
    Mintalie, Shiea, Sancus and 2 others like this.
  15. Reval Augur

    Also, based on the design limitations of the game, button reduction is a priority. They can only make so many aa buttons with the current way things work lol. That's why mana draw became a further version of gather mana as well. These aren't really about creature comforts for players, they're about the need to free up buttons to turn into other aa's with the next expansion.

    That's why my suggestion is an aa called Simon Kills, which really takes 4 buttons, and as you can repeat the pattern given further and further, you get increased run speed, hp bonuses, ac bonuses, 25k spell damage, increased sex drive, and at the maximum level when you target mobs you start porting to gap closing positions (say within slow aa casting range of the mob when you target it), which can be used to get close to a mob to pull it, but also to move away from the mob, escaping potential damage. This establishes that enchanters are important and other classes aren't.
    Sirene_Fippy likes this.
  16. Silv Augur

    I don't know if his Wiz numbers are accurate... if so, then yeah, that's bad. I think moreso the point is that OP is saying he is awesome and is hitting 55k DPS as an Enchanter post nerf. That's kindof a ridiculous claim and really goes to show that Haze wasn't a *huge* nerf or over powered which apparently some dev thought (which means that it probably shouldn't have been nerfed).

    On Vitio yesterday in 109s I hit 102k DPS. Prior to the change I would hit ~80k-ish but it also takes us a lot longer (100 - 160s) than what Renaii posted for example.

    It is simple math... everyone received a 100% boost and so now all mods were adjusted to reflect that. Go read the patch notes/Roshen's summary about how it works now.

    More don't join the forums because of pretentious posts like yours. You come here out of nowhere and seem to be the next Dandin. Try and make me seem like the bad one but when you start off a post bragging about how awesome you are -as if it's going to give you credibility- well, most aren't going to respond well to that.

    ps. I'm not sure what stats you think matter but you certainly don't have the best ones in game for an Enchanter if your magelo is up to date. I know you didn't want to make it personal. But you still did :)
    Xikteny likes this.
  17. Random_Enchanter Augur

    Get placed into the wizzy grp where the raid leader is playing a wizzy who is trying to beat necros on long duration parses.

    Let the spice flow!
    Wolf the group!

    It is a known fact by 95% of the population out there that 80% of 90% of all metrics are made up on the spot and don't reflect our current reality.
    what i posted above is basically the same as what maxxbuff posted and both should be taken with very large gain of salt (say the size of the sixth moon of Jupiter?) I'm at work right now and don't have the ability to post a parsed log so i pulled numbers that seemed reasonable outta my head. I also know that my raid group has various problems with raiders doing what there exposed to. Heck, our core enchanters are drunk on 90% of the raids:rolleyes:o_O
    Silv likes this.
  18. Silv Augur

    Sounds about right. :p
  19. Reval Augur

    Salt parse: Reval: 97238039 grains @ 95324gps.

    Honestly even though I was a strong supporter of us getting stronger nukes, my parses have not been the highest I have seen, even on Zek. Maybe I should: Learn the Enchanter Class before I Tamper with it!

    It's gone full circle! See ya next time.
  20. Cicelee Augur

    If there has been anything I have learned in 15 years playing Everquest...

    Is if someone says "I am the best XYZ in the game!"...

    It usually means they are not.
    Potawatomi, Beimeith and Sancus like this.