Law and Order

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by DuchessElindra, Jan 7, 2016.

  1. DuchessElindra Elder

    Disclaimer : I want to apologize for eventual misuse of legal words. I am not native English, also I did take Common Law class in law school I must confess I was pretty bad at it.


    So I would like to ask the knowledgeable community about the rules that applies on the Phinigel server, specifically about the old set of rules known in the past as "Play Nice Policy" (to be referred later as PNP). Please note that I am asking about actual rules, therefore laws, being supported and watched by Daybreak and not the kind of "have a nice reputation", "be a nice person and God will send you to heaven" or "honor among thieves" poppycock of that sort.


    About the norms :

    1- Is it allowed to over damage an already engaged mob (also known as Kill Steal) ?
    I'v read on, yes sorry, General Channel, that KS is allowed on TLP server and called a "DPS race". Even if that would sound extremely unlikely and strange to me, I still have to ask.

    2- What is owning a "camp"?
    The general consensus about this I found on guildchat says that it is a static spawn of mob that you keep killing on every repop. The terms of ownership being :
    - The presence of the player.
    - The camped mobs being dead or engaged.

    Since I'v seen (not naming, this isn't a rant and flame post) guilds literally "mobbing" groups out of camps, I feel there is a serious question to ask.

    3- Can you own a camp through a wipe?
    Or in other words what is the time allowed to fill again the terms of ownership? Or can I sit here and wait for you to eventually fail and than take the camp over?

    4- Does "camp checking" have a legal value?
    Or can I own a camp even if I don't answer the camp check? Can I take over a camp if no one called it "camped" but is obviously here?



    About the legal sanctions :

    A- Is Daybreak Games taking any sanctions on players involved on :
    a- Kill Stealing?
    b- Camp stealing?
    c- Training?

    B- Are there any difference between TLP servers are other (PvE) servers ?



    If you can please post anything of your personal expérience or official GM post or links it would be of great use.
    Thank you.
  2. Sheex Goodnight, Springton. There will be no encores.

    DBG doesn't acknowledge or act on pretty much anything you said. There is no killstealing of static mobs (spawned maybe another story: see warlord skargus in kunark), nor do they recognize camps in any form. So no punishment will be given for anything other than maybe repeated, blatant and constant harassment of other players via training, threats and such (see: Keon where it took them like a week or more to crack down on the guy?)

    I'm the past when they had resources and an actual CS department things like killstealing were addressed. Now they tout the "players can work it out themselves" line and ignore anything but the most blatant dickery. This is now true across all eq servers, it just had little to no impact on live where there are instances, alternative ways to acquire things, where a huge portion of the best gear isn't tradeable (except on FV), and those of us that play on live generally participate in said crappy behavior a looooot less.

    TLP = wild Wild West
  3. Until We Felt Red Augur

    Yes.

    No such thing. No camps are recognized by DGB.

    See above. You cannot own a camp at all (in DGB's eyes).

    It has value to those who play the game and respect the idea of camps. This seems to be most players, so there is value.


    A and B, no. C, yes, if it egregious and with repeated reporting. Could take days or weeks.
  4. Vaclav Augur

    While accurate in many cases, some things like using charm aggressively to steal mobs or dispelling a charmed pet obviously being used as an actual pet can land you in the hot seat very quickly.
  5. TarewMarrForever Augur

    Short answers:

    There is no such thing as kill-stealing. DPS-race, bruh! :-( But most players, like myself, will not engage a mob that has been engaged. Even if by only a fraction of a second. I can't tell you the number of times I've given a free Snare on a HG. ;-)

    There is no such thing as camp-stealing as there are no camps per se (ie officially recognized). But most players do recognize them, but not consistently (unfortunately).

    Deeper answers:

    Case in point: I got in unnecessarily heated "discussion" last week with a group leader when I took an standing / unegaged Avo at KFC ramp while passing through. His full group was sitting on the hill to the west, half way between KFC ramp an the western scout tower (clearly they were pulling from both). The leader flipped out and tried to DPS race after I *clearly* first-engaged the Avo while they were medding (I pulled it with a snare). It got half-way up the hill to me before he sicked his mage pet. Of course, what really pissed him off was he lost the race (which he shouldn't have even tried...he was the KSer in this case). Sure enough, as soon as mob dropped and he got no xp, he did an /ooc was "KFC is camped you KSer". You can't camp the entire KFC tree lol. Especially from half-way up the hill!

    That's one example of the inconsistency that is EQ these days. I honor camps, absolutely, but the ENTIRE KFC tree is NOT one camp lol. Most would agree with this. It's common sense. But not all will agree, so even when you try to play with civility, others will still think you are an a-hole, because their definitions do not meet yours. In this case, by his definition, I was a camp stealer (I was not, I literally just grabbed *one* unengaged mob while passing through, and they were NOT sitton on or even near it's spawn point despite the fact that said mobs are NEVER aggro, to anyone, until engaged), and he fought back by trying to be a KSer (an lost, laughably, even though I only used DoTs).

    Side note: two of the players from his group sent me direct tells apologizing for his boorish behavior in /ooc. I had to end up ignoring the guy it got so bad, and I *rarely* ignore people.

    Another example: before we had instancing on Guk on LJ / RF, this was rampant, in reverse. Unfortunately, it seemed everybody's definition of what a "camp" was was rapidly becoming what their group could handle. Sorry, that's not a camp. Just because you can hold down 5 rooms does not give you the right to do so, and you should have to expect tor race to keep that level of greed. Now, if you have the *strength* to to it (*cough* mage box army *cough), then so be it. But just because you were there first and holding what is essentially 5 camps, you do not have a right to all of them. Civil people will share finite resources. We had to do it back in the day. But in Wild Wild West, they wouldn't, because many players are douches with IBS: Internet Bass Syndrome. Fortunately, this mostly went away with instancing. Especially on Phinny with no armies running around.

    Bottom line: On TLP, especially phinny where you most likely need to group to level at a bearable rate, if you still "kill-steal" or "camp-steal" and ruin your rep, while DBG won't do darn thing (it is perfectly allowable), you will find your long-term viability on the sever to be diminished, at least with that toon. There are no name-change pots (yet), so once you are a known loser, you stay a known loser.

    So while many of the posters above are technically correct: there are no kill-stealers and there are no camp-stealers because it's DPS-race and there are no such thing as camps, *many* players still try to do the right things in these cases, and will honor camps, and will not attack and engaged mob, and when others camp or kill steal against them, they will make their friends and guild know that soandso is a total toolbag.

    As they should.

    Hope that info helps!
  6. Yara_AB Augur

    1.1 Play Nice Policies - Activity within EverQues

    This pretty much answers your questions I think - in an official way:

    Camps / KillStealing:
    There will be no first in force or engage rules arbitrated or enforced by a Game Master or Guide on any server. We believe players can resolve disputes about camps and raid bosses between each other. Game Masters and Guides will not help negotiate these disputes between players and guilds.

    Training:
    o Causing intentional experience loss to other players (deliberately impeding fleeing players by blocking their escape route, intentionally training NPCs on other players, etc.).

    Of course there are more than just those two passages.

    And because people often think that they (DGC) don't do anything about folks training others you will want to check over there on reddit ;-) .
  7. Frenzic Augur

    Already good answers to your questions so I'll just add some more


    There is no rule for first to engage. The game has a built in mechanic to deal with these situations and that is 51% damage done without being wiped by memblur type abilities.

    The term "kill steal" is used to describe possibly a bad mannerism, a rude behavior perhaps, is perfectly legal.



    Camps have never been recognized by Everquest. Some Gms would enforce sharing, but as a company it was never the case. Camps are more of a gentlemanly agreement. I get these mobs without being bothered, you can have those ect.



    Camps do not exist no matter how long you've been there killing or waiting. Waited 16 hours straight for random epic mob to spawn? Some Sk rolls in and HT it right in front of you? Perfectly legal.



    It has value to those that play by that standard. Same as a Price check has value if people honor the point and give you accurate information.


    Kill stealing does not exist. Every mob is contested and is a pure DPS race to 51%
    Camps do not exist so they can not be stolen.

    Here is the big exception to the rule. TRAINING-

    Training is ILLEGAL because it is a form of harassment. Forms of harassment are taken seriously and are enforced. Following a level 5 around on your 50 mage and killing everything he engages is considered harassment by the Daybreak team and they will step in. Training a player(s) with mobs is harassment regardless of the reason. Intentionally causing a player(s) an exp death is harassment regardless of the reason. Harassment is a judgement call by the GM involved and is open to interpretation.
  8. Rauven Augur

    Most issues are because of the rules change. Not everyone knows that Kill Stealing (aka doing more damage to an already engaged mob) isn't against the rules. It used to be. And that's where the confusion comes form.

    Camps have never been recognized by 989 Studios, Verant, Sony Online Entertainment, or Daybreak.

    Training is against the rules and always have been. The only change here is I think you can't train players on PVP servers. But I could be wrong there. Course the rule there used to read something like, "Any confrontation between players that can be resolved through PVP will not be resolved by GMs." But again.. this may have changed over the years.

    And my favorite would have to be SVU.. you just never know how the episode is going to end.. sometimes they twist the plot 5 seconds from the credits.
  9. TarewMarrForever Augur


    Players have certainly recognized them, and for the most part still do, at least for XP camps. For l33t item camps, I admit that on TLP unfortunately this often degenerates into a DPS race and camp-steal, especially on RF/LJ where mage box armies are Krono-farming, but it is MUCH better on Phinny.

    Again, instancing has gone a long way toward making the issue less relevant than it has ever been.

    Case in point: the other day I was camping Spectres in OOT. I was taking all 7 with ease (kiting 3 and 4 with med between). Great XP in mid-to late 30's. Person showed up an pulled 1 (the only 1 up) while I finished kiting 3. By the time I had gotten FM, 4 would have been up, and I would have taken all of them. As I had been for nearly 90mins. But instead there were only 2. So less XP for me, despite the same exact downtime as I was already throttled by the spawn rate of the 7.

    Could I have throw a fit? Sure, could have, but wouldn't. Others certainly would have. But I have no problem sharing, even if it meant only half the XP rate. But I didn't have to. I did what the OTHER person *should* have done to begin with; jumped into the other instance with only 2 players (both of which were after AC).

    When something is obviously camped (especially in XP-only camp), it takes 30 seconds to ping the guy and ask if he minds sharing. Quite often people will gladly share (or maybe you can group up and both win). If they won't, you can then choose to move on, or remind them that the offiicial line is DPS race, and depending on your class makeup vs theirs, half may be better than none...

    Bottom line: Others do not have to share. You do not have to ask. But it's still the right thing to do. It's call civility, folks. We play to have fun. Not to be an tool. If the only way you can have fun is by being a tool, go play on a console.
    Felicite likes this.
  10. TarewMarrForever Augur

    The other thing that hasn't been mentioned as disallowed (unless I missed it) is zone disruption. No, I'm not just talking about training. Zone disruption due to mass slaughtering of gray mobs is not allowed if you are preventing others from getting xp, even if you are legitimately farming for silk / pelts /chips / eyes / whatever. You have to leave mobs up for level appropriate hunters, if there are any in zone. If some show up, stop, especially if they ask you to. If not, expect to be visited by a guide for zone disruption.

    Again, common courtesy folks. Being fast to 50 does not give you the right to be a tool. You earned bragging rights. That's it. You did not earn the ability to grief just because you have the power to do so. This is a community game. Stop thinking of yourself only, you . ;-)

    My best Phinny story so far: two weeks ago I got a 50 monk suspended for (apparently) 1 week. I had been XPing on Crags in EK, when he showed up an startdd mass slaughtering them for silks. Normally not a problem, but normally a Monk can't run *directly* to every single ranom spawn point immediately upon spawning of the mob. He was clearly using 3rd party software (I was the only tracker in zone, so he didn't have an alt or friend helping). I asked him if he would at least leave a few up, and that despite being there first I would gladly share, and the classic reply was: "It's tough all over dude". Let that sink in...

    So after observing this behavior for another 10 mins to be sure he was cheating, I petitioned him and 20 mins later he was GANKED. Exactly 1 week later he was back, and none too pleased lol. Called me every name in the book before I ignored him. Said a particular guild will never have me or have anythng to do with me. Like I care. People like this will never learn, all you can do is hope they get hit by a bus IRL before they procreate. Society doesn't need any more of them. There's enough out there already.

    Now the point: would I have reported him if he shared? Hell no. I couldn't kill *every* Crag by myself before they repopped given their range, even with tracking. So if he took half of them or so, even with cheating, it wouldn't have affected me, and I gladly would have turned my head to the flagrant abuse. But if you come in and start killing what others have been killing (the corpses were strewn about) *and* get no XP from them *and* won't share *and* cheat in a way that anybody with half a clue can see...you're just an idiot, and get what you deserve. ;-)
    Felicite likes this.
  11. Angered Augur

  12. Tyraxor Augur

    About your last question, nope there's no difference between TLP and Live for that.
    But on Live, everything of interest is pretty much in Instances now.
    And communities are often very old, it would just be so rare these days there...players on live are not used to playing against each other, the only race is for raid progression and again those are all instances.
  13. Rauven Augur


    I recognize camps too, but that's sort of beyond the scope of the thread. Knowing what's legit and what isn't is good to know. If for some reason Daybreak did have a camp policy, and someone busted your camp, you'd want to report rather than retaliate. Its sort of like being trained.. if you retaliate, there's a chance you could be reported and suspended instead.

    But since camps aren't recognized, you can resteal them at will.
  14. DuchessElindra Elder

    My point.