Largest class die offs ever.

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Whulfgar, Jun 24, 2019.

  1. Allayna Augur

    The issue with the mysterious ways line heal is that your spell counters are chewed through with every successful swing while the benefit, the proc heal is not granted with every successful swing.

    /GU Cipheron in 705s, 805k @1141 | #1 Liljit 805k@1141 (1141 in 705s) [100%]

    /GU Cipheron in 705s, 2880 AH | Liljit 2880 AH

    /GU -vs- Cipheron - Spells Cast By: Liljit: 65 | Banestrike: 10 | Ethereal Ways Rk. II: 9 | Jann's Light: 26 | Mending Ether II: 20

    /tell Liljit Liljit -vs- Cipheron: -- DMG: 804866 -- DPS: 1141 -- Scaled: 1141 -- Crush: 474352 -- DirDmg: 295797 -- Environmental: 34717 -- % dmg as normal: 77.5% -- % dmg as critical: 22.5% -- Non-crit rate: 90.5% -- crit rate: 9.5% -- Attempts: 682 -- Hits: 507 -- Missed: 123 -- Defended: 52 -- Accuracy: 80.5% -- Avg Hit: 1587 -- Max hit: 16500 -- DMG to PC: 10384

    Above you'll see a level 85 raid mob against a 110 druid in raid gear melee only with etheral ways.

    9 casts of the spell for 20 procs. Total healing 171042 from those 20 procs. There isn't a way in gamparse to link total healing only actual healing.

    So...over 700s like 1 additional direct heal for the MT? The MT doesn't need more healing. The druids don't need another spell eating a spell gem that in a real group would have to be spammed.

    Again: 507 hits - 9 casts to keep it up the whole fight - 20.....20 procs.

    The mismatch on this spell is that the counters are eaten WITHOUT rewarding a healing proc. So why have a counter limit then? It already has an extremely short duration for something that requires a spell slot.
  2. Duder Augur

    You are aware that druids got relevant heals starting at lvl 1updwards right?
  3. Wulfhere Augur

    This could also be changed to count spell procs like all the other SPA 429 spells in the game. Classes would all have a chance to use up the counters without enabling faster swinging melee to "over heal".

    Max Hits: 48 Offensive Proc Casts

    I think changing that would make Mysterious ways line worthwhile.

    EQ Resource calls this field Max Hit Type and so the current value "5" could be changed to the value "11".
  4. Micker Augur

    I think currently, the class that is dying or died off are Necros. I also never see monks, they used to be all over the place, now I rarely see one, what happened to them? Paladins also seem to be disappearing. You can tell the classes no one is playing on FV, because you see their end game armor for sale. You won't see a lot of end game armor sets for sale for very long, but see Paladin/Monk armor being auctioned for days.

    I guess necros are dying off, due to the huge dps increase for classes and mobs dying so fast. I have a ton of 110 toons and I haven't leveled my necro past 103, which is sad, because that was once my favorite class(paladins too lol). They need a revamp, I feel my enchanter can equal necro dps against group mobs, that die so quick.
  5. ShadowMan Augur

    There are just so many little issues that add up for the class these days. What made the class so fun has gotten a bit out of hand and outside of raids, which has its own big set of problems, the game play just continually gets undercut or taken away based on random whims or pet peeves. Making it so other choices are the better option for many or that are more insulated from random changes that fly out of no where with little input considered.
  6. Ninelder Augur

    That was supposed to say Group Heal, druids got their first group heal in PoR. It required group progression to obtain from a class that both historically and generally still has the least group desirability.

    They got the same useless direct heals as shaman and paladins but no LoH, no group heals and no HoTs. They got their first and last HoT in Luclin. A 30 hp per tick HoT with a 5min duration and a 5min recast(LOL.)

    Their heals were badly revamped in GoD/OoW; and they were given their 75pct version of Complete heal(AKA Incomplete Heal) so they could fill in vacancies in raiding guilds made by clerics that finally realized that they were paying to play a game where they stood behind a wall counted to a number and cast 1 spell over and over and over again on raids.

    Rather than apply any skill, creativity, or talent to and actually attempt to fix the problem; the devs just carelessly grabbed another class, gave them a crappier version of the same spell and put them in the same exact predicament, forcing most of them to quit too. The only winners here were the stockholders of Blizzard Entertainment.
  7. Ninelder Augur

    Aside from one ranger disc(that comes to mind) no proc has ever been effected by swing rate. Procs are a modable number over time. You can test this pretty easily, get only shaman/beastlord haste and count number of procs with haste and without. Do not compare non-haste to chanter haste as that has an all combat modifier. Your number of weapon/buff procs will stay the same.
  8. yerm Augur

    God, what a painful set of posts to read. It's such a lopsidedly anti-healer view and in such direct conflict with expected outcomes... and if I had to guess, shared by at least 90% of eq players who never mained a cleric for long.

    Imagine that you are a cleric, and you log in. You need to do X. A group of your friends or guildmates is so happy to see you log in they have been bored for over an hour and just need a cleric. You join up. You want to do x, they want to do y. 5 of them to 1 of you, maybe 4:2 if you are really persuasive. You do Y. You log off that night, a champion of the nonhealers.

    You log in the next day looking to X. A group has been waiting for an hour to do Y and just needs a cleric. You decline and join the crew yesterday, you did Y maybe now you can do X? Nope, they want Z. You leave the group. You are a jerk. You join the other group of 5 that just need a cleric, and end up being talked into doing Y again, because you made a cleric so you probably aren't some type a person or you'd have made something else.

    Day 3. More groups need Y and Z, nobody wants to do X. You decline joining a group and instead ask if anyone is lfg and wants to join you. These groups scream in guildchat that they have a group and join them, but you know they won't do x.

    Day 4. You get a group to do X!

    Day 5. Hey, we helped you do X, you need to help us do...

    As a cleric, your options become to either:
    A) Join a group and try to get them to do what you need, even though they already formed with plans and will resent you manipulating.
    B) Form your own group and ignore the people who don't wanna join. This is what I would do personally, and it both creates a LOT of hostility like you describe, and also important to note, I don't think most "cleric players" overlap "group forming and leading" players much.
    C) ignore your own and help others, and end up getting less of your own needs met.
    D) quit or class change.

    This thread is about the biggest class dieoffs in eq. Cleric never really had one instance of it all at once like a nerf elicited, but I dare anyone to say they aren't the most noticeable for attrition through the life of eq. Guilds were begging for more clerics in the early days of posting dragon loot on gif-laden garbage websites and noows, currently shopping for good clerics even now and with the current crop of top guilds, constantly in need all in between from wow launch on, constantly in need on tlps...

    Maybe there was something foul in the social elements of eq that made people give up a supposedly beloved and desired class that was enjoyable? Something that didn't change at all even when ch chain gameplay got enlived. Maybe, just maybe, you accurately and very eloquently don't get me wrong have identified the issue responsible for by far the biggest die off in eq, clerics over time, but mistakenly blamed them for the issue without realizing just how awful it could be to play one OUTSIDE of raids because of those waiting 5 man "just need healer" trap groups. I prefer struggling to find a group because of too many box healers to that former meta of being a jerk if I didn't sacrifice all my own ambitions.

    I challenge anyone to name a class more consistently needing to be replaced or re recruited!
    Dsuna and Ninelder like this.
  9. Wulfhere Augur

    Right. We're talking about SPA 427 here. Rogue and Ranger are the only class with offensive abilities like this.

    This is well known since the changes where made to nerf warrior swarming with rampage + slow + Earthshaker over a decade ago. However, skill procs are also different SPA then those weapon or contact procs (SPA 85 and 419) and have a modifiable chance to proc on attempts (SPA 427) or hits (SPA 429). The Devs have given themselves room to play.

    Another way to up the procs on Mysterious Ways line is to increase the rate mod from 100 to something higher like 400 (typical for other spells with SPA 429).
    Ninelder likes this.
  10. Hayzeus Augur

    Necros hands down.

    The developers' disregard for the necro class has been building for years now, and many of the best necros have retired due to that disregard.

    AAs reduced to uselessness. Diminished fade - diminished slows (made even more useless by combining it into an also-diminished debuff line). Uninspired copy/paste spells and copy/pasted AAs (what's left of them). Diminished mana regen capability. The list goes on and on and on.

    I haven't played for a few years now, and yet I still lurk because I love(d) the game. I still pay for a sub because I want to believe there is a future for this class regardless of how unlikely it continues to seem. I wish I could find a reason to log in...but being diminished into irrelevancy is heart breaking. It's sad actually, and it's highly disheartening.

    The class has been kicked into the gutters by the developers time and time again. And every time I've thought "well it cannot get any worse," the developers get down into the gutters and just keep on kicking.

    If a single developer would ever have the guts to step up and say "Necros are a viable class for *these* reasons..." or "Here is why we, the developers, think that you should still consider rolling a necro..." then maybe we would at least understand their vision. But they don't, because they cannot. They're treatment of the class is indefensible. The fact remains that necros are no longer viable, and the developers don't *appear* to care.

    Of course, the player base vitriol is such that, if anyone shines a light on the concerns... the rest of the player base immediately jumps on them with shouts of "hey it's okay" for yet another nerf another nerf another nerf. Or the equally ethereal response of "it's their game, go play something else or play another class if you don't like it" tends to stop any realistic conversation about the issue.

    Unfortunately, this is not just a "vs necro" issue... it's all classes treating other classes the same way... "love it or get out."

    I'm sure other prominent necros that still play could provide a better list of all the reasons why the class has been gutted, but we all know (that here on the forums) a whole slew of other people would step in and say "qq this" or "suck it up butter cup" or start listing all of the reasons why they (the non necros) think it's fine to have any other class obliterated thusly... the mulberry bush just keeps on going round and round.

    So... I play another game, and hey yah it's A-Okay by me, but a game succeeds by getting one player at a time, and it fails by losing... one... player... at a time.

    PS: I predict someone will quote this entire Tl;dr post like this "Hayzeus says 'incoherent stuff here'" and then wash it all away with a couple of short one-liners as if that makes it all okay for everyone. And then the cycle will continue unabated.

    Dsuna, sauron3030 and Moege like this.
  11. Ninelder Augur

    No one agrees with that guy, maybe a few other "flat-earther" types. He lost all credibility when he said that he sees more tank mercs being used than cleric mercs. LOL

    For anyone who wants to test the disparity just go down your guild list and sidle up to all the mains of every class type, and compare their achievements for any anything this decade. Your cleric mains will be sucking hind teet with the druid mains if not worse when compared to every other class.
  12. Ninelder Augur

    Necros are still super strong in the group game. Their problem is that in the raid game they are a DPS class that lowers total raid DPS if you have more than 2 or 3 of them in the raid. The devs have screwed you over in the raid game, but not at all in the group game.

    If they have died off, I haven't noticed, they and SKs are the most common classes you see moloing current content EQ. They are also the most common alt class for clerics, who want to "play a class that can get things done." One of my guild main necros even boxes two other necros, so he can fill up a mobs debuff slots all on his own. I told him wouldn't it be better if you boxed different classes i.e. "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts," He said, "No, that would be less dps."
  13. Petalonyx Augur

  14. menown Augur

    Be more precise with your definition of the group game. If you mean non-raid content, then necros do fine solo/molo. This is true with about 6 other strong solo/molo classes, where I would not put the necro in the top 3 nowadays (depending on gear). If your definition of the group game is a group of 6 players, then necros are seriously behind in the DPS race.

    For reference, it takes about 90 seconds of ramp time for a necro to reach peak DPS. 180 seconds to realize that peak DPS. So spells like the Necro aura, swarms, and swift DoTs are heavily used with a couple of Pyre and Ignite DoTs to give the best burst potential available - burst for NPCs with low HP in group content.

    A solo shaman, a very comparable class to necro, can perform at the necro levels of DPS in the solo and group games. But a shaman also has amazing adps and heals.
    Spellfire likes this.
  15. Ninelder Augur

    I was under the impression that [Group Game]=[Non-Raid Content]

    I was then more precise and about how necros have been hosed in the raid game. If only you had read the second and third sentence:

    If the Necro population has diminished I cannot tell(we have six raiding necro mains.) You would be hard pressed to throw a stone at the EQ-playerbase without hitting a necro. But it would be impossible to throw a stone and have it hit someone that would argue against necros getting a well thought out Revamp/Dot Revamp.

    Everyone knows necros and or their dots need serious dev attention, and it should of been addressed years ago.
    Dsuna likes this.
  16. Allayna Augur

    And 4 of them are on the bench to avoid bouncing dots I assume.
  17. menown Augur

    Forgive me because I did not make quite clear my point.

    The phrase "Group-game" has been used synonymously as the "non-raid game" and "grouping". However, these are not equal. To claim that necros are super strong in the group game is not entirely true. It can be true with how you used it, but untrue to how others perceive what you are saying. Necros are not super strong in groups running through content. Necros are super strong when moloing non-raid content.

    Now back to your main point. Are necros highly represented? I raid in 3 guilds, and the numbers are 3, 2, and 2 necros. I have autojoined a serverwide necro channel for the past 3 years now and the most I've seen in that channel is like 3 people on at the same time over the past year. Several that used to join the channel have either main changed or quit. Your server seems to be an exception to how many necros are still playing.
  18. Moege Augur

    No they are not, replace the necro with any other dps class and you better off. Trash mobs take less than 30 seconds to kill. Named 2 minutes or less.

    If you want to play solo you can, just remember that dots now have a chance to break root on EVERY tick. You solo/molo experience is miserable.

    There is a reason for this, you need 2 necro's for their alliance, 3 and you can keep cycling it. The downside ? It still takes longer to kill things !

    I retired my necro last year. The class is just not viable.
  19. Kobra Augur

    Necro for sure.

    I am a die hard necro, I always thought I will still play my necro until the servers shut down.

    Lately, its hard not to feel useless when I join a group with my friends. I can pull for them and anyone can do that. It just feels bad dotting up targets only to watch them get blown up by burst dps.

    I don't even feel like raiding, when I can't stack dots due to debuff limitations it takes away the fun. That used to be the trade off for me. I could handle sucking in groups if I could shine on raids. The juice used to be worth the squeeze, now not so much.

    I don't blame necros for quitting. The class is an anachronism and the devs seem clueless.
  20. ShadowMan Augur

    As others have mentioned being strong solo or molo verse single mobs is not the same as "being super strong in the group game".

    In the group game out of combat regen, resource management tools for mana and endurance, the nature of instant burst dps verses dps that requires to much ramp up time when mobs melt in 20s, with very little down time for hours at a time, even with just 3 person groups basically has put the class at an extreme disadvantage at its primary job of dps. Insert comments here where people explain scenarios where a necro AE's multiple mobs, sphere and dots on multiple mobs, and you then compare combine of it all when everyone else was primarily single target and say its all right. And while we are still very effective one on one solo or molo many of the recent nerfs and current design has continually uncut our ability to handle multiple mobs at once solo or molo. Just about every mob either summons or is immune to snare root or can't be slowed by us or has some extremely nasty spell effect. Which has all but eliminated kiting or rooting multiple mobs at once at rates that were possible for 18 years, which is what offset stinking in a group setting somewhat for many. Pair this all with our fade nerf, our slow nerf, our debuff nerf and all the pet nerfs we eat at full strength despite having the weakest pet and its been sayonara for many who were not sticking around for the gutting or decay of the class. Our "tank pet" is just barely above enchanter and sk pets at this stage

    Raids are limited to having 2 or 3 at the most and buff blocks still occur. And ramp time still plays a massive part of what takes place. Most of what is seen as "great necromancing" is juggling dots on multiple mobs at the same time aka AE'ing when most others are being compared based on what they do single target. You can't just ignore that necros can dot multiple mobs at once and put them on even footing single target but you also have to realize how friendly most raids are to dotting up multiple mobs at once hiding what is much more obvious in the group game. A few tweaks to existing raids or new raids being mostly single target and the group issue would rear is head in the raid game as well.