Largest class die offs ever.

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Whulfgar, Jun 24, 2019.

  1. Muji Augur

    Dont remember it being mitigation for the monk nerf. Pretty sure it was a dodge/avoidance nerf. Around Luclin monks become the best rampage tank due to our avoidance. We would usally only take 1-2 hits out of the 4 for ramp. Best rampage tank for Emperor Ssra was once upon a time, monks. Until DA hammer and the avoidance nerf changed that right quick!
  2. code-zero Augur

    I do remember Ranger's making caustic remarks about "guys in leather pants" being able to tank better than a chain class.
  3. Drayman Lorekeeper

    Great. A healing revamp to go along with the dot revamp a few years back. I am sure glad I retired that little tree hugging bastard!
  4. Nylrem Augur

    Largest die offs ever matter not at all...

    Only thing that matters now, is current die offs.

    And necros win that, hands down.

    The complete lack of the development team to fix the necro class for as long as it has, has totally ruined the class.

    They are completely unwanted in the raid environment, by any decent raid team.

    The fact that a mob's debuff slots are so low, combined with all the 'more valuable' debuffs, and higher DOT damage per debuff slot consumed by other classes, means that you would have to compare 4 shamans' worth of DoT damage to 1 necro, due to the debuff slots consumed...

    Every single necro main that has returned to the game in the last two years, wishing to raid, once realize just how bad it is, has immediately quit again.

    Other classes have issues, for sure, but none as bad as the necro right now.

    If they don't fix the necro this expansion, then I truly have little hope for the lasting ability of the game, because it's showing just how little they understand and willingness to fix a truly broken thing.

    Nope, I don't play a necro, but I've had several fantastic friends that mained them, upon a time, and I know they would never return, to an environment for the necro such that it is now.

    I completely understand it's a daunting task, but one that should have easily been figured out by now...
    sauron3030, Annastasya, Moege and 2 others like this.
  5. Nylrem Augur


    Eh?

    Have you ever played a raid cleric? I would have to doubt it, with this statement...

    Playing a raid cleric extremely well is much less stressful than a magician even slightly better than mediocre.

    Much easier class to play, much easier to perform exceptionally.


    Edited - shouldn't be mean.

    Your healing team/coordination needs some improvement...

    Everyone should be gathered at the MT, everyone should be meleeing (wizards can hit 60k MELEE DAMAGE/melee procs when burning), the MT should have shaman alliance on (biggest AE range), and druids should almost never have to cast a heal, other than Ethereal Ways and AA heals...

    Druids are not a healing class that can DPS some nowadays... they are one of the best DPS classes, that can indirectly heal the MT so much with Ethereal Ways that direct heals are almost unnecessary, that can heal others when needed, as well.

    Do you realize in a pet group, a druid can heal the MT for 4 million hp a minute, just casting Ethereal Ways every 15s (which is about how long it takes for a pet to consume all of it's procs)?

    Druid's group heals, if other priests are covering heals well, group members are close to the MT and receiving alliance heals, and other healers casting AE heals and HoT rotations done correctly, should be mostly unnecessary.
  6. Allayna Augur


    Eq lost another long time necro to a main change to a melee dps class very recently.
  7. Axel Lorekeeper

    Whatever raid team doesn't want a 500-700k sustained DPS is not a good raid team...
  8. Allayna Augur

    More = less. 2 necros, fine, 4....pointless. Better to add 2 zerkers in that space.
  9. FawnTemplar Augur


    Thanks for all the explanations. I was so in the dark!
    Duder likes this.
  10. Tzutsu New Member

    It was a huge nerf but largly pointless.

    The soft cap on AC got changed due to poor itimization that let mons tank like warriors and add dodge in. The nerf effected 95% of monks and missed completely the target of the top 5% or so and so they were still better.

    That and the manaburn nerfs get my votes but i have not played since 2004...
  11. Aelen Augur

    What's this based on? Have I missed something huge in how this works?

    I wanna say its theory crafting based on the assumption that Ethereal Ways has a proc counter of 48.

    48 counters * 5 pets * 5464 base = 1,311,360, which on pets alone would obviously be more than 4 million when you scale 15 seconds to 60.

    But that isn't right. It's a chance to proc, and those counters are based on outgoing hit successes. Meaning melee hits landing, which pets do reasonably often.

    [57982/5767] Ethereal Ways Rk. III
    Classes: DRU/108
    Skill: Abjuration
    Mana: 2098
    Target: Caster Group, MGB: No
    Range: 50', AE Range: 100'
    Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes
    Focusable: Yes
    Casting: 3s, Recast: 6s, Timer: 7, Rest: 1.5s
    Duration: 36s+ (6 ticks) Song, Dispelable: Yes
    Max Hits: 48 Outgoing Hit Successes
    1: Add Skill Proc: Mending Ether III with 100% Rate Mod
    2: Limit Skill: 1H Blunt
    3: Limit Skill: 1H Slash
    4: Limit Skill: 2H Blunt
    5: Limit Skill: 2H Slash
    6: Limit Skill: Archery
    7: Limit Skill: Hand to Hand
    8: Limit Skill: 1H Pierce
    9: Limit Skill: 2H Pierce
    Infuses your party with a mysterious healing power, allowing their melee strikes a chance to cast *#1%N. Lasts for %z or until %L successful attacks are made.
    [57985] Mending Ether III
    Target: Targets Target
    Range: 250'
    Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes
    Focusable: No
    Casting: 0s
    Hate: 1
    1: Increase Current HP by 5464
    Heals your target's target for #1 hit points. Only inspires %H hatred.


    In my experience, the proc rate on this is so low, and the depletion rate so high on anything that isn't a low accuracy, low hit volume caster, that this is a generally weak spell. Like around 2 procs per 15 seconds combined between a caster and pet.
    Scornfire likes this.
  12. Password1234 Elder

    I remember my similarly-geared druid friend taking lower max hits while sitting than my monk did after the nerf first hit.

    No, I'm not still mad about it, why do you ask?
  13. Ninelder Augur

    While his post is for the most part laughably inaccurate(I have never seen the word druid and best in the same sentence.) He is not entirely wrong about mysterious ways. It does't proc well enough from pets to consider counting them. But on melee and tank PCs in a raid environment, all counters will be used up long before the buff would of timed out.

    Therein lies its concealed power. Mysterious is the best name for it, like procing alliance off a tank, the healers and buff-caster will get no parsable credit for the massive amount of raid healing you are responsible for. All classes that can heal have a substantial enough amount of healing to be worth casting. If they weren't, the rangers, paladins, and beastlords would never use them.

    What kills the tank is not that heals aren't large enough; its the interval space between heals landing. The tank needs more heals coming in, not larger amount of heals. Mysterious ways patches up the holes between heals nicely.
  14. Brohg Augur

    spell gems, though…
    Twin Wrath Sun Horde Dicho Roar Roar Remote Rev Adren Survival - leaves two slots only. Chill/aura/manabear can share one of those slots, but there's five different debuffs & three buffs & god forbid you want to load Luna & Vida ever. Ways too?
    Allayna likes this.
  15. Lannin Journeyman

    Enchanters , they cant get aura timers or group Net !
  16. Darchon_Xegony Augur

    Druids are long overdue for updated Debuff AAs.

    Fine keep giving Druids spells for them but offer AAs so that these spells that are rarely used can be cast via an AA.

    We already have it with Blessing of Ro for our one fire Debuff. Go ahead and update that AA to also autocast Skin to XYZ (if the mob type meats the body requirements). This should be done from UF-Current ranks of the AA.

    Starting in UF for each level increase expansion Create a Blessing of E’ci AA. Have it autocast your highest Breath and highest Frost ice Debuff together.

    Starting in HoT for each level increase expansion Create a Solar Eclipse AA. Have it autocast your highest Sunray and highest Moonbeam DoT together.

    The update to Blessing of Ro and the two new AA lines would greatly help Druids ability to apply Debuffs which are often too spell slot heavy or not impactful enough to bother with due to the non-visible returns they provide.
    Allayna and Brohg like this.
  17. Duder Augur

    What would we do if we didn't have the worlds best completely unknown and unidentified name to explain to everyone how to druid and how to raid? Thank goodness they posted all that information, not sure I could have figured any of these complicated things out otherwise. I bet theyre in the top guild ever, regardless of progression status. Heck, with an explanation to raiding and druiding as good as that id be surprised if they aren't the best player in all of Everquest even.
  18. Aelen Augur



    I still dont think this addressed my question, or necessarily shows you understand what I said. You seem to be talking from an intuitive perspective, I’m saying on mechanics I think this fails to fit whatever it might seem like it’d fit intuitively, and seeing if that guy or someone else can address that, or give a good reason why that's wrong.



    First, the 48 counter thing isn't a proc counter. It's a wierd, secondary limiter that mostly just applies to proper melee. For a proc counter, it'd say Offensive Proc Casts like the bard song Travenro's Suffering. Same issue I brought up with the other guy. Meaning depleting the counters at a high rate is not somehow good--It offers no additional healing, it just means the spell has to be recast more often, and this tends to make me think of it as a bad spell for standard grouping if your crew isn't somehow specialized for this. Raiding's a little more up in the air, and does rely on your casters meleeing, and what they're meleeing being where that healing would help.

    [56201/1747] Travenro's Song of Suffering
    Max Hits: 3 Offensive Proc Casts
    1: Add Skill Proc: Travenro's Strike with 250% Rate Mod


    Vs

    [57980/5767] Ethereal Ways
    Max Hits: 48 Outgoing Hit Successes
    1: Add Skill Proc: Mending Ether with 100% Rate Mod






    Second, while the caster gets no credit, the heals still do show up on the heal parse of the people you're casting it on, and if you're the only druid in their group, you could still get an idea of what your cast of the spell is adding to those players by checking for Mending Ether in the heal parse for them. Credit isn't a particularly important element to me for rating power. Pets are an exception in that reporting for pet healing seems broken, but it does still work, making it at least a slight unlisted advantage when procced by pets.



    Third, most classes aren't going to have wildly different amounts of Heal Amount at this point I don't think, so the main thing that differentiates different classes for this proc is going to be how often it has to be recast for them, do they have a pet, and the crit chance they have for heals. All hybrids save bards, all priests and all 3 main pet classes have some decent crit chance for heals. More with auspice or the bard song.



    Fourth, that spacing issue, somewhat ironically, points to one of the biggest Druid weaknesses in spam healing. You have to use Curavida, a slow heal, if spamming single target. But size does matter, it just isn't usually a deciding factor between heals you are actively choosing to cast. The older heal problem was the "Crit or Die" scenario, which definitely relied on size. In this case, little random, uncontrolled spammy proc things contributing healing need to reach a certain threshold to actually be making a difference. Prevent a death if the next big heal doesn't land fast enough, otherwise just be a different source of overhealing, taking some of the credit out of the bigger heal. A kind of patchwork armor deal when combined with other sources--and I don't think this rises to the level of things like shammy swell or the different priest/pal defensive procs, or just having staggered healers/splashes/ToT heals off some Pallies.

    If it was a 30 minute buff with no counters or something, this wouldn't be an issue-more is better. But since it takes a spell gem and has to be cast anywhere from every 6 seconds to every minute and a half depending on what your group is composed of to keep it on, how it compares to just throwing another heal instead matters. The randomness also matters.
  19. Ninelder Augur

    First: I haven't actually counted pcocs, I was assuming that the counters on it worked the same as the counters on every other spell like it. It could be broken, lord knows the devs haven't actually tested any druid spells this decade. e.g. the AE heal from mushroom pets. I have noticed that the buff usually times out on pets but wears off early when cast on PCs.

    Second either way its working is still mysterious! LOL.

    Third: My point on heals was that every class with them can function as a healer. A Paladin can heal almost as well as a cleric, and often will beat them on parses; when they are put in that position. Other hybrids less so but still substantial. It has never worked the other way around, you have never seen a cleric tank 90pct as well as a paladin. Hybrids actually have some extra power that you point out in your fourth point, but that's a separate problem. The point I was making here is about the power of heals. Every class with heals has enough healing power in those heals. If a clerics base heal is 10,000hps higher than a druids or a rangers it doesn't actually make a noticeable difference, when all 3 classes can fill that tanks HP bar. The Devs have a catch-22 here, if they actually reinstate the hierarchy of healing, then there will be a line between classes that can heal and classes that can't. Which even after druids were forced into the healing role, it was another ~5 years before it caught on with the playerbase that they could heal. The first druid heal came in PoR and required "progression" which due to horrible dev-balancing 99pct of the remaining druid population had never been exposed to. I had a shaman raid leader who put me in a group heal role, and when I tried to tell her that I had no group heal, she said "sucks to be in your group."

    As to your fourth point; You are right. Not even the Flat-Earther monk above who thinks that people use tank mercs more than cleric mercs, can argue that.

    Druids and mages are the only classes left with severe cast and recast times. These were originally a balancing issue between druids and clerics and mages and wizards with some give and take between them. Mages got longest range DPS but of course completely tied to line of sight. Druids were suppose to get something like that in group heals but it was /drumroll, given to shaman instead; like the druid submitted rain spell-line. Shamans still beat out clerics on range of heals. Then for whatever reason they also have 3 stackable HoTs and the recourse heal which blows everything clerics have out of the water. I can only assume that since most shaman-toons are boxes of melee mains, they got spells to suit. All melee-hybrids have super-fast cast times. Their heals, their DPS spells are fast-cast enough that they don't trigger a fizzle check nor require spell haste. A druids heals on the other hand are tested and balanced on them having cleric-cast spell haste. Druids require cleric buffs just to reach a bar that no other class has.

    Apply that to the current game in a mission like the cliffs mission. It requires a real healer for most groups to get through it. But those mobs will stun and FD. They have never fixed the mid-cast stun and FD lockout bug. So if you are in the middle of casting your 4.5 second group heal it can interrupt you and lock you out of casting anything for 30 seconds or more. While its much less likely to happen to any other healer, just due to their cast times(CLR 4.0/0.85; SHM 1.0x4,LOL!). They also have a myriad number of ways to compensate for it, HoTs, spells that heal alongside doing other things. And multiple clickies, aside from the FD clickie has there ever been a shaman clickie that wasn't also an HoT?

    Mysterious ways doesn't help any of those problems, and if its not using its counters properly then its not even helping the tank as much as I thought. When I am on my druid in raid, and healing is low, I generaly cast this on tank and melee groups, not on caster groups. I used to start the raid with a pre-cast TB of it, as it was mgbable. But they broke that at some point or other, probably when they broke the mushroom heals.
  20. Nylrem Augur


    Necro that can't land DoTs does not even come close to 500k...

    The issue is the debuff limit on the mobs. With even a single necro, we start bouncing DoTs about 30s into a fight. No idea how any guild could run 2 necros on a raid.



    So are you saying that a counter can be consumed, even if it doesn't proc it's heal? That has not been my experience, personally.

    I am pretty sure it has a chance to proc every successful hit, and when it does proc, it consumes a counter. It will last it's duration, or 48 procs, whichever occurs first.

    I can assure you, a magician's water pet will consume all 48 counters in 15s or less, and 10s or less with Frenzied Burnout.

    Meleeing, I consume 3-4 procs per 15s, very low proc rate compared to pet.

    Theory crafting 4 pets and zero caster procs = just over 1 million hp healed every 15s, on the conservative side. As you pointed out though, ideally, with 5 pets and caster procs, it could be closer to 6 million HP per minute.

    You essentially have a 1.5s cast time, 6s recast time, 70k per SECOND heal over time spell for the MT, with a drawback that only lasts 15s, and you call that a weak spell.

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