Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Whulfgar, Jun 24, 2019.
Original Ward of Tunare change from an instant heal to a HOT was a dark time for group Paladins.
I don't have a shaman.
We can't have nice things. People were grabbing trash mobs to get hit (heal), ignoring them, and tanking raid mobs. As long as they got enough trash mobs and didn't get one rounded they were more or less invulnerable.
We need this back, now that I play a Paladin. Thanks DBG.
That is my second favorite position!
None of these made me quit, but definitely sucked for me (Bard nerf rant incoming!):
Mitigation nerf. Went from 3rd in tanking ability, behind knights, to mitigating like a druid. Clerics got this one too. They eventually brought bards and clerics back up a bit to be on par with the chain classes, but damnit, I wear plate!
Aggro generation: Just 'cause these cupcakes couldn't use all the tools the devs handed us to control our aggro, someone decided that the whiners and afk bard bots needed to be appeased, so they took away my aggro. I used to dual wield the aggro axes from the light and dark DoN merchants with aggro augs in them, while twisting slow/snare and some dots and I could barely keep mobs off the shammy I used to duo with. He wasn't even slowing. I once saved a raid because of that bard aggro. Tanks angered RNJesus or something, because they dropped like flies, real fast like. Guess who was next on the aggro list? Bard. Got summoned, turned the mob away from the raid, hit deftdance, and lived long enough for a tank to get rezzed, buffed, and back in the fight. That can't happen now. Give us an AA switch to turn it on and off... Please. 20 minutes ago, I had a mez resist while boxing and one heal from my druid was enough to take aggro from the plate wearing bard that had been mezzing these mobs for 5 minutes. Ded druid
Fading Memories mechanics: Sure, make the mana cost hurt, it did when it was new. 900 mana on a class that doesn't benefit from mana regen spells and regens at a rate of 1 per tick standing and 2 per tick sitting is supposed to hurt, but why change it so you had to be far enough away to actually become invisible? </rant>
I agree that a plate class should mitigate damage better than a chain class, but especially more than a leather class (stares hard at monks).
Combat subtle strikes, Deftdance, and Dissonant chord and there ya go.
I wish I could find it... There used to be a dev post, maybe it was on The Steel Warrior, I cant remember now, that gave the ranking of intended tanking ability by class and it was Warrior>Knight>Bard. I think this post has been lost to the annals of the interwebs.
That's great and all, but I'm on a TLP, wont have that ability for some time
Also, a little longer than 12 seconds would be great. Sometimes I box an unconventional trio with a bard tanking. It'd be nice to be able to do a couple of bard things and tank instead of only dotting to keep mobs off my necro.
Here's my reasoning: Rangers, a melee DPS class that wears chain, have a taunt and flame lick. Bards, a utility class (utility... can fill any role under certain circumstances) that wears plate, got an aggro nerf. I'm not asking for taunt. Don't need it, just gimme back my aggro
Even disabling subtle strikes and using covenant on cooldown and full burn, a beastlord under full burn has better aggro generation.
oh I know.... one of my favorite classes to duo with
Clerics back then and today are the only ones to blame for mercs getting used over them. Back before mercs were introduced, Clerics and healers in general would commandeer groups to do what they wanted or leave a group if the rest of the group decided to do something that the cleric didn't want. It was common for a group to have everything but a healer and people spend their entire playtime trying to find a healer only to have the group break without doing anything.
Today similarly they want to do what they want to do, I find it almost impossible that anyone who was doing any of the progression, quests, or tasks would not first ask for a real healer before going off to do them. In reality, it is more likely that what is happening is that your clerics get asked to do groups farming names and prioritize that rather than doing group progression or achievements at the start of the expansion. Meanwhile, the over populated melee classes who don't get asked regularly to do named instead get together and pop a merc healer and do the progression, quests, tasks, and achievements. Then after the clerics are geared up or what have you, they have trouble finding people who actually still need to do those; but even then I find it unlikely that people would not help them if the cleric actually asked for help to do those missions (because everyone wants a cleric as a friend they can ask for help on hard stuff).
Plate Classes do mitigate damage better than chain and leather classes, even monks.
If I had a trophy to give you, I would.
The funny part being, that the bard mercenary should be the easiest one to make. I mean, its not going to pull for you... but you simply take a DPS merc, halve its melee damage and then give a Song List of 3-4 of the popular song sets(i.e. Melee Song Set, Caster Song Set, etc) for it to play.
It won't replace a real Bard, but in situations where you don't need Bard pulling or CC... that doesn't matter.
Replace the word Cleric with Tank... It's just as true. But with tanks, it was true before and after mercs came into he game. It is still true today.
You are definitely right that having to wait for a certain class sucks. As you are a monk you might not understand the disparity. You can tank probably everything and if in doubt you can throw out more than one healer merc.
No amount of Tank mercs are useful, Using one is a bad enough experience, I doubt anyone has every tried using more than one tank merc. If the mercs were on equal footing as far as filling a group role, the current situation would of never existed.
The situation you are describing here has a name(possibly more than one.) We call it Tank Month. The first month of an expansion is the only chance non-tank-type classes can get stuff done easily. If a cleric a druid a rogue or zerker, and chanter-bards(to a lesser degree,) do not get progression done in that first month, they will struggle for the rest of the year. Because the tank-type classes have healer mercs available, and can also DPS better than 10 mercs at a minimum; they can zip through progression real healer or no. After the first month, all tank mains are done, they log in less and have much less incentive to do things in game i.e. Tank Month.
They do usually have one real healer required mission as some type of joke caveat. The reason you cannot find real healers is because they are off playing their "capable" alts that can actually get stuff done. We do have one cleric main with no alts that logs in every day; and is asleep at the keyboard at least half the time, due to no options.
Stop and think about it before throwing the word "blame" around. Do you think they only let selfish people play clerics? You do realize there is a person on the other side of the toon? They could of chosen a different class to play way-back when. If that person had picked monk, would you blame him for healer mercs?
No, it was healers, specifically clerics. Tanks have never been required for playing. There are any number of melee characters who could tank both back then and today in group situations. The times where true tank classes are needed are few and far between. At that point in time it was mainly for group missions or extremely hard names.
Back when mercs were introduced, the tankability was not nearly what it is today. Also, Tank mercs are very useful if you use them as intended and don't have unrealistic expectations. There are numerous people who have used multiple tanks. Mercs are on equal footing, they are just as good relative to a real player. The difference is in the classes they mirror, not in the mercs itself.
Hate to break it to you, but that is not the case. Tanks are not required to do the progression. While some requires more than one person and you cannot sleep through, it is doable with non-tank classes. If anyone at all is not getting progression done, then it is because they are not making an active attempt to complete it. The excuse that anyone would not prefer a real healer over a merc when doing progression is just plain ridiculous. Tanks in normal taking situations do not dps that much better than 1 merc, and that is only if they are tank mercs. Sorry, it has nothing to do with Tanks, it has to do with you and others not making serious attempts to complete progression. Pretty much anyone can tank progression given a real healer and other real players.
There are far more missions that require healers than require real tanks. If any cleric is not able to get a group, it has to do with the player not a lack of options.
Not sure what you're trying to get at here? I am speaking about the truth of how things were before mercs were introduced. It wasn't a one off thing, it was a common and wide spread occurrence of clerics joining groups, demanding the group do X, and then when the group decided Y instead dropping the group. Today, people just ask for anyone who wants to do Y, and when no healers are interested they pop a merc and go. So yeah, the healers or anyone not getting things done today are to blame for the usage of mercs and not getting their tasks/quests/progression completed; all other classes have no problems saying, "Hey, my main is a ZZZZ that needs that mission, let me know when you get more and I'll log them in."
Also, it is just silly to attempt to claim that a person who chose one class should not be blamed because they could have chosen a different class instead.
Now that it is so easy to level up a character the only good solution to the class problems is to level up one of each class, and then main whichever does not suck at the present state of the game Rinse and repeat for each new expansion.
Your viewpoint is from the perspective of a raid-geared monk. The class that has the most "tankability" of any non-tank class. You belief that tanks aren't required or rarely required is completely ridiculous. Ask any wizard, chanter, rogue, berserker etc... The less tankability a class has the more they need an available tank. Even what you can fill in for means diddly-squat to group geared monks and pretty much to any non-raiding-non-tank class.
Unlike you these guys can neither fill in nor use stackable mercs; their one worthless option is to use a tank merc. As it is now, there are no usable tank mercs. Which means a huge chunk of the player-base has no options... There is no defense or excuse that can justify ostracizing 30 percent of the playerbase; regardless of what you believe.
I cannot even remember the last time i have seen a tank merc being used in current content. By comparison, I stumble across maybe one or two groups a month that aren't using a healer merc. They are everywhere.
I use tank merc every time I box.
LOL, since when does having group gear ranging from current to VoA count as being a raid geared monk? All current group geared classes mentioned can tank far better than I can. Do some research before spouting off and making yourself look stupid.
All of the classes discussed can most definitely use mercs to fill in just fine. Tank mercs are usable you simply cannot use them well when paired with a single merc healer as well.
I stumble across groups multiple times an hour that are not using merc healers or mercs at all. As stated before merc tanks work fine when you are not using the merc healers for them. There are specific named they do not do well with but that is expected. Your 30% is likely closer to 3% or less. What you think is not reality.
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