Lack of Progression of Mid Teir Guilds

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Mulleteer, Jul 26, 2017.

  1. wingz-83 Augur

    Interesting read:

    Can see a lot of stuff that was implemented from this list. That summit was in 2004 and they decided on 54 then. Was over decade ago, no re-evaluation really from then.
  2. Reynen Journeyman

    So you claim it's short sighted to "get better" but you propose to switch the attrition away from 4/5 guilds (that have a chance to die anyway because other reasons) to the 20+ guilds that can beat the content by making them farm even longer due to very easy to beat content. Great change!
  3. baider Elder

    that is a very elementary approach to the situation and quite frankly completely non constructive.

    The issue an officer faces here is those members who have been around forever tend to ALWAYS act like babies and if an officer gets on to them they say "okay fine ill leave and go join XXX guild or quit"
    Then now you end up with even lower numbers on raids, which does not help solve the problem at all. This is seriously what would happen 9/10 times.

    The other issue here is why should the say 45 players on every raid suffer just because officers/leaders cant hold the 5-10 players accountable? Where is the solution, and the solution I am speaking of is allowing people who are putting in effort day in day out for months on end to see rewards and more rewards than 3 raids a week 8 months into an expansion.

    I see the most plausible and easy solution to retain customers, make the most amount of players happy, and avoid attrition is to make slight changes to raid encounters to make them just that little bit easier to allow still hard working guilds with the majority of players paying attention to achieve more success, and only doing so months into an expansion. I am NOT saying make all raids EZ mode from the get go every expansion.

    And for the guilds who did have 60 players(some benched) all ready to raid and pay attention, they STILL reap the benefits of having the raid gear FIRST and spending months gearing up alts so it shouldnt make them if raids are made slightly easier so more people can enjoy the game.
  4. Maedhros High King

    Without a doubt you are correct when it comes to older guilds and having years and years of fluctuating expectations and more strict or more loose requirements for apps depending on so many changing factors over the years. That does tend to breed complacency.
    Getting away from that kind of environment of mediocrity was a main factor when I decided to start my guild.
    I do think it is possible to cast a wrench into the system in an underperforming older guild and break it down to find out what is working and what needs to be fixed.
    I know there can be a nightmare of politics to dance around for guild leaders and that can sometimes cause poor performing players to slide along because if you do anything to correct or punish those types of players it can ruffle the feathers of their buddy who is a strong contributor etc.
    It comes down to a leader having the guts to do what's in the guilds best interest even if it's an unpopular decision.
    Fix or cut the weak players.
    Recruit replacements.
    Establish standards and adhere to them.
    Establish a mandatory voice based chat program like teamspeak or discord and practice "radio discipline" during raids for superior communication above text alone.
    Reach out to rival guilds to form alliances to get through difficult content.
    Establish a guest program for raids.
    Watch top guilds twitch feeds to find clues. Not just to events but to effective communication patterns.
    Reach out to top guild members and get advice on issues

    Get the frick into the winners circle for EOK.
  5. Jhenna_BB Proudly Prestigious Pointed Purveyor of Pincusions

    I have to tell you watching 54 people play EQ teaches me nothing. EQ Text wall lol. EQ's camera angles are clunky in comparison to other games. I can't see what buttons they are pushing, nothing on the screen tells me that. Their AT's make different sounds than my AT's. It's just a cluster screw of bodies pig piling on a boss. I have to watch segments like 4 or 5 times to figure out what their reacting too and why they're standing where they are now. Other MMO's or games like Overwatch you can get tons watching people on Twitch. For EQ the gain is slight.
    Thancra likes this.
  6. Phrovo1 Augur

    there comes a point where a player not being there changes nothing or actually makes things smoother. I've met some pretty horrible people in my time player eq who perform so badly that they could afk for all I care. Holding those people accountable would a)remove that complacency or b)open up recruitment for that class a little. Don't you think it's more detrimental to annoy your members that actually try than appease the ones that are just there? I would rather lose 5 slackers than 1 exceptional player. A guild that does this will have a good rep and an easier time finding replacements than a guild that doesn't trying to replace the good one that moved on.
    In regards to good players being friends with slackers, surely they should understand where you come from when if you explain why you're telling their buddy to stop slacking? That or they just don't care enough to win, in that case oh well. These risks are worth taking
    Annastasya likes this.
  7. Cicelee Augur

    Addition by subtraction.

    I remember one event in SOD or UF or HOT when 54 raiders consistently lost to one specific event. Drama happened a few months later and we lost about 10 players. We had that one specific event on the raid list for the night but only be 46 on. We decided to try it, and lo and behold on attempt #1 we won with the 46.

    Many times it is not just having 54 players, it is having the right 54 players. And not just referring to class distribution either...
    Xianzu_Monk_Tunare likes this.
  8. Reynen Journeyman

    Coming from you and your history of out of touch reality posts, that's quite funny!
  9. p2aa Augur

    How cute, here is a Brohg's friend that comes defend him.
    Yes, I must be a bad player and I need to play better. I succeeded a trial in top tier raiding guild, coming from a low tier one, in playing a class whose performance or lack of is easily seen in raid.
    What about you ?
  10. Bamboompow Augur

    Finishing all the raids has been and always will be the province of the elite. If that is what you want than mooch off mid tier raids enough to gain adequate gear (and give them hope that they might get some where) and then leave for the high end. Its a bridge that has been burning since 2000.

    The game is the game. The part that causes the problems are those who play it. Either with unreasonable expectations (towards devs, guildmates or themselves), elitist attitudes, or players not knowing what their limits are (which ties into the first one).

    Calling other players "slackers" in a video game is frigg'n hilarious btw. Considering those "slackers" might be more productive or have more responsibility outside of game in the Real World than the so called elite chastising them about it. Just as an example, Mid Tier raid guild members might use their vacation time to take their family on a vacation. Elite use it to beat all the group game and acquire all AA in the first 2 weeks of an expac launch. These are Real World decisions that impact a virtual realm. These decisions should not translate into condemnation since its not anyone's business how you manage your time...and yet the more elite players think they have that right. The flip side of that also is that if you did not put in the time, than don't complain about the lack of results.

    As for the elite bragging about their achievements, well, good for you. Never mind that most of the top elite guilds are pretty equivalent to creating a perfect fantasy football team. Its easy mode. If you want a challenge, then lead raids at Mid Tier or Open Raid. Those people may not pioneer the strats, but certainly have to make something out of nothing more often than not.

    Anyway, the Elite guilds got to finish everything and farm it for that investment of 2 weeks of free time that you can't get back...well unless you don't even work than it doesn't matter. The more casual player got maybe to do something with their family, visit a new place, or just plain relax and perhaps have some good memories. Either way...the game..the software/servers/devs etc doesn't give a crap how that two week period was spent or any other two week period. Nor should it ever have to. The same wood and tools can build a shabby bird house or it can build a violin. It is still just wood and tools and it doesn't care.
    Agrippa and Perplexed like this.
  11. Nudia Augur

    This is a bit dated and really out of touch. To touch on it a bit:

    Now, more than ever, group gear is enough to at least crack open the door to the high-end, especially with modern drop rates on weapons easily allowing incoming applicants to do reasonable damage. It has been *years* since I've seen applicants turned away with the old "go gear up somewhere else and come back" direction.

    Re: slackers - hilarious or not, the real life productivity of an individual means absolutely nothing in the virtual world. What does have meaning is the compounding hours lost by others when an individual feels like cruising through with their thumb up their . That said, this idea that the high end is home to the only ones that take time off of work is laughable. This happens in all walks - people take some time to relax and enjoy the new content. I, personally, don't, simply because taking time off just makes work worse later. I have friends in my (high end) guild that do, I have friends in my old (low end) guild that do.

    "The elite bragging about their achievements" doesn't seem as prevalent as you make it seem. Source needed? Every single guild out there does something to celebrate their kills - cheeky updates, public channel announcements, whatever else. The high end guilds, barring the server firsts (which are an achievement, no matter your view of the achievers), have not been "in your face" loud for a long, long time.

    Now, the two weeks of free time, beyond just being some random baseless attack to begin with, is made up time and time again, whether it existed or not. The more casual player is still spending 3-4 nights a week raiding 3-4 hours to this very day. I'm enjoying my 2 hours per day 2 day raid schedule, personally. For as much as this busted narrative still seems to exist out there, it's really, really not accurate.

    The high end raids less than the mid and low end. Guaranteed.
  12. Maedhros High King

    I wish I was as good at picking a fantasy football team as I am at playing EQ. Making money off my time on the internet instead of investing hundreds of dollars in a guild would be a neat twist. Draft Kings says they pay out millions every year!

    I have no idea what your sources or motivations for this post are but it just reeks of jealousy.
    EQ is a hobby, and like nearly any hobby, you will get out what you put into it.
    During peek times when a new expansion comes out I probably play EQ 20 to 30 hours a week. My guild takes probably up to 10 hours a week of raiding during new content, learning events and waiting for lockouts. I bust my butt and get all the new augs and group ACH's to maximize my character as fast as I can, sure.
    Youre telling me noone outside of the elite guilds is doing this? Noone else is playing the group game 20 to 30 hours a week when an expansion is new? Lower tier guilds arent spending 10 hours a week raiding? Thats absurd.
    I would counter that casual players have to play far more total hours to get themselves maxxed out due to time limitations playing, and sometimes hitting the "everyone else is already done so now I have to solo progression" blues.
    I do not begrudge someone who has a busy real life schedule. I have people working 60 hours a week and raiding with my EST guild that live in friggin Australia. Cry me a river would ya?
    I dont understand why you would begrudge someone who makes EQ a higher priority than you can or are willing to do. Its our hobby, and we can play it how we want to, even if you take your ball and go home.
    As far as your final comment, if you are saying that youre happier since you take time to spend with family instead of "wasting" it on EQ, then what the heck are you even complaining about?
    Goodluck on your birdhouse. My EQ Violin is a Stratovarius.
    feeltheburn and Annastasya like this.
  13. Bamboompow Augur

    I think you misunderstand my point but whatever. What I was driving at, and this is to address the assumption that the OP is implying that the game needs to change to suit their needs. The game does not need to change. It is just there....in its same predictable form. It's players that make what they want out of it. If you can't put in the time than thats your problem. But hey, thanks for cherry picking whatever I said and twisting to suit your agenda. I actually do play this game as well too, so don't talk down to me like I don't know the score, pal. Hope you enjoyed your opportunity to express how awesome you are. If I have any other points, it's that I don't blame tools and materials for a lack of craft...and that the top tier elite give themselves way too much credit sometimes. Some members of those guild have a habit of using the canned "suck less" reply to many conversations such as these. Well, it's never that simple.....but most can agree that changing the game won't fix anything.
  14. Derd Augur

    I don't think he had a grudge, as I read his post it read very clearly. Top end guilds have mostly high playtime well versed in the raid, class abilities and application in game play. It makes it extremely hard for raids being tuned to be any challenge for them and still allowing guilds with fewer of those type players and more casual eq players to succeed in current raids. Saying play better while correct does nothing productive.
  15. Reynen Journeyman

    Lol I don't even know the guy but I kept seeing your posts where you make a fool of yourself. Yeah, you're a big boy now that you finally entered a real guild and you saw the light, still not good enough to give away your name, you must be so proud lol.
  16. Shadva Del`Shai Augur

    Holy crap people! Zip up your pants or pull down your skirts, take your dang rulers and go home.
  17. p2aa Augur

    Says who ? I'm still good enough to be less anonymous than you, who gave 0 indication. Btw, go back loosing your time defending your friends, I'm done with you, and welcome on /ignore I don't see any of your posts starting from now.
  18. kizant Augur

    Those 45 players should suffer because they're being dumb. It's nice to be loyal to your guild if you've been around for a long time and have friends there but you have to have your priorities in order. If you're not having fun unless you're successfully raiding current content and you've tried your best to fix your own guild and it's turned out to be a hopeless situation. Then just leave. Transfer to another sever and app with someone else. Unless you're stuck on FV or something I don't see what the problem is. I don't see why the game should changed considering plenty of other guilds are doing fine and when you still have options you can take on your own to solve the problem.

    I'm not trying to be mean. I'd give to same advice to someone who's stuck at a crappy job who's too afraid to leave cause it's comfortable. Staying and driving yourself crazy isn't doing yourself any favors.
    Maedhros likes this.
  19. Fintank Augur

    I think 1 of the attributing problems in the mid-tier and low-tier guilds is acceptance of constructive criticism. I for one have been a part of a handful of these guilds and always run into the same road block when I try to help. I can give all this data and parses proving my point but people just shake it off and continue on with their terrible play. Now even though I'm a terrible human being and an a-hole most of the time when I try to help other people play better it is similar to holding hands walking down the beach. Respectful, informative and kind. In order to get them to see WHY it's better and WHAT they're doing wrong because if they can figure those out it will help down the road when new nerfs/fixes/burns are introduced and they have to change things. That being said, 90% of the time people just take offense to it or nod their head and do nothing. You can lead a DPS to the sword but can't make him use it :(

    With all that being said, if you are in a mid-low tier guild and think you can do better or are curious to see if you're performing at the top you can always send cross server tells to people in higher guilds. I personally don't mind when randoms send me questions and what not about things and have met several other people who feel the same throughout my years. If you want your guild to progress you have to start with the individual.
    Maedhros likes this.
  20. Reynen Journeyman

    The guy you're quoting, according to magelo, is currently playing on AB which is pretty much the same as FV or Zek, you can't really expect euros to transfer to just any severs and be fine with it.