Lack of Progression of Mid Teir Guilds

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Mulleteer, Jul 26, 2017.

  1. Kiras Augur

    To me, the fundamental problem is lack of content. There's 8 raids in EOK. 3 are pretty easy. EOK also has the usual gear reset - TBM raid gear is just barely better than EOK group gear. A long time ago (pre SOF), there was good value in doing older raids, so there was a lot more content, even ignoring that each expansion also had more raids.

    In ROF, we had corrupted NTOV. Was it rewarding? Not especially if you consider the number of drops per dragon. However, it was something to do and it gave gear that was worth using. That's a good design - less rewarding but less challenging. On top of that, there were 8 raids before Xorbb (the first real block).

    TBM was better designed than EOK, because you could skip the worst raid of the expansion (damsel of decay). EOK forces you to do the raids in order, other than Lcea and Droga. The shared instances thing is obnoxious, because it stops you from even having variety in what you can attempt. You must do raids in a specific order.

    It's fine having some hard raids. We should have stuff like PoWar. Having very few easy raids though, is a recipe for attrition in mid tier guilds. I know there's a number of vocal people on these boards who basically respond to every complaint with "get better." Those people are extremely shortsighted. Guilds folding leads to a drop in server population, which ultimately hurts everyone. It's fine reserving some raids for really high skilled guilds. But with only 8 raids total, most of them should be accessible.

    I'd love to see a corrupted Ssra equivalent to ROF's NTOV. Viable loot, but not a lot of it.
  2. segap Augur

    That raid just needs to go away. No one should be subjected to the boredom that is the Lce raid. It's an example of them trying to be too cute with a raid design and putting a story line above game play. At least I think it's about story line. I fall asleep as soon as the dragon flies away.
    Phrovo1 likes this.
  3. feeltheburn Augur

    True sir, but simply stated that anyone who claims to be in a raiding guild or heck EVEN somewhat raiding guild and does not have that done shows a true lack of effort at this point of time passed in the expansion and sorta epitomizes the plight they are in. No effort to get something like that done, how far along do you think your gonna get on EoK raids? just my 2cp
  4. Sokki Still Won't Buff You!!

    I agree that a lack of effort outside of raids plays a huge part in the success of raids. Maxing AA's or just the very important one's for a class makes a huge difference in player power. My first alt that I put a lot of time and effort into (Wizzy) use to be able to keep up with other wizard mains, during TDS he was basically max AA's with a mix of CoTF and TDS raid gear. After 2 expansions of putting in very little work on him, mainly not keeping up with AA's as he still got TBM raid gear, he only does about half the DPS of others who kept up with the AA's. The same is true with my recent Zerker alt, after getting him important raid focus and an end game raid weap with the 20 dam aug he still only does half the damage of other zerkers which is due to lack of AA's again. If you have people that haven't finished the progression, chances are they haven't finished AA's as well, doing the progression line nets a huge amount of AA's which would knock out 2 birds with 1 stone and make a huge difference on raids.
  5. Fanra https://everquest.fanra.info

    Because there are so few raids these days, excluding guilds from some tiers means they have little content other than repeating the same raid for the 5000th time.

    I think it is better to have a second chest appear on an achievement (hard) win with more / better loot for those "elite" guilds rather than leave the mid tier guilds with nothing new to do. I think it should also come with a title, so that those who beat the "hard" version (got the achievement) can show they did so.
    Tallie likes this.
  6. Phrovo1 Augur

    I honestly really liked the one-offs in TDS, think having one of those after say Chardok would have been pretty cool
  7. Axxius Augur

    It was a lot harder to do it in TBM raid gear, after farming the first two tiers of EoK for just several weeks. It's a lot easier to do now after spending months in T1-2 and getting mostly EoK geared. The tuning of the events like the Kar'Zok and the Dragon is excellent.
    EnchFWO likes this.
  8. Jhenna_BB Proudly Prestigious Pointed Purveyor of Pincusions

    This is a tough issue, for sure. I just don't see it possible with the lack of numbers in the development team to make an easy and hard mode raid. Like say a 24 or 30-man easier version guilds with less numbers can handle.

    The balancing act then becomes are the what - 17? (I haven't checked lately) or so guilds across all servers that have beaten all the EoK raids to this point willing to be a little less challenged to have it so more people are able to experience all content.

    I'm not answering that one for people.

    Mid Tier is last expansions raids and maybe one or two new expansion raids. It has been like that for a long time in this game. This content cycle all the mid tier guilds were GIFTED Lceanium, Droga and Prince. Absolutely gift-wrapped with a big red ribbon. IMO, nothing needs to change. Be better organized, recruit or be one of the recruits. Welcome to EQ. :)
    Maedhros, Phrovo1, EnchFWO and 2 others like this.
  9. MyShadower All-natural Intelligence

    Knock! Knock! A business opportunity for DB is at the door!
    Slap another udder on the cash cow. Raid achs, armor, etc. from the previous expansion available for DB cash when a new expansion is released! Just put asteriks on the purchased achs and make all purchased raid armor blinding neon yellow. That is winning!
  10. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    Thread should be called "Lack of Progression in MY Mid Tier Guild".

    Let's look at the benchmark of days from the first guild finished the expansion, and compare:

    TDS (29 guilds beat it within one year of the first guild)

    5th - 54 days

    10th - 102 days

    15th - 180 days

    20th - 196 days

    25th - 275 days

    TBM (26 guilds beat it within one year of the first guild)

    5th - 16 days

    10th - 27 days

    15th - 67 days

    20th - 150 days

    25th - 320 days

    EoK (19 guilds - so far, with 5+ months to go)

    5th - 30 days

    10th - 51 days

    15th - 93 days

    19th* - 184 days

    TDS was harder and had pita flagging. TBM was easier with much faster flagging. EoK was in between on flagging and difficulty, honestly.

    The flagging issues explains most of the top 15 guild speed difference. But it seems funny to me that when it comes to the 20thish guilds, the speed doesn't seem much different at all. These guilds kills aren't being affected by the flagging cblocks, it is a good reflection of how fast they go through content.

    Also, some of the guilds that were in the top 20 last year are the ones struggling this year. It is what it is. I'm all for making stuff more accessible later on, personally, but let's not pretend that there is some massive mid tier die off happening, it is the same as every other year, and every year a couple of guilds die, which is to be expected.
    EnchFWO likes this.
  11. EnchFWO Augur

    Could someone enlighten me on exactly what a *mid-tier* guild is supposed to be? Because I'm confused and I think different people have different definitions. Personally, I consider anyone 11-20 in terms of beating the expansion mid-tier raiding. Anything after that to me is a "casual" raid guild. At least roughly - some will be closer to top end wins and some closer to the other end. Not an exact science cutoff.

    Are we talking solely based on time(days)? Raids won(tier)? or what?

    My guild beat the expac the start of May so that would put us (if EGL is up to date) at #18 of 19 guilds that have beat it, although with a two month gap between the next. Regardless, I consider my guild mid-tier based on my above criteria and long term stats. None of the problems described by OP would remotely apply to me(us).

    Sooo... maybe some people should stop considering themselves midtier if they are casual or raid below the intended # or gear. Or maybe it needs another name because I think "midtier" is very subjective and almost misleading.

    Just a thought.
  12. segap Augur


    I'd say there is a significant drop somewhere between the top 3 and 7 where the top tier ends and the mid tier starts. Lower tier probably starting around 15ish. Yes, some of the lower tier has success, but they're still far more casual and inconsistent than those above them.
  13. EnchFWO Augur

    While I did ask... I would not agree with that definition. Starting on Jan. 1 and going thru Feb. 28 - 11 guilds beat the expansion. And those were all sprinkled through... maybe a week or less between them. You really consider >3 mid tier? The next gap was then a whole month, then two (cumulatively). To me that starts 12 at mid this expansion.

    And in your example then, if people 15 - 19 are low tier but have beaten the expansion, then where does the OP's tier start? Maybe time to beat the expac in days is the better metric to use instead of # in the rank?

    Please don't think I'm being argumentative- I've always wondered what different peoples' perception of "tiers" were.
  14. ShadowMan Augur

    The problem was all the gear resets and forcing everyone into the current expansion mold. Leaving the majority of the game with minimal content after a few months. People swore up and down it was good for the "group" game but it killed the population. You went from massive amounts of content and layer upon layer of stuff to do with multi expansion hierarchy that catered to massive amounts of players and play styles. You can thank the dont let them raid sod crowd or its not fair their raid gear from 3 years ago is better than my group crowd for chasing so many away.

    Now anyone with a pulse and a few hours a week can max themselves and 2 or 3 boxes. The game gets boring and loses its draw to many.
  15. segap Augur


    Look at execution, organization, consistency, devotion, leadership, etc. There is a big difference from the top few guilds and those that come after. Part of consistency is looking at performance from the top of the guild to the bottom amongst players. Once you hit mid tier, you'll start having some low performers. Hitting lower tier, you'll have a few great players carrying a lot of lesser players. More than capable of beating stuff, but they're not in the same class as a guild as the mid tier.
  16. Brohg Augur

    I don't think descriptors like high/mid/low tier make sense defined by the ordinality of their expansion conquering date.

    Tiering is clearer if you look at farm targets rather than progression. The top tier guilds have enough time beating each expansion completely to walk away, on an organizational level, when new content releases. Sure, someone(s) in the guild may still want a chase item or achievement from older stuff, that their guild may help them get, but when the guild's goals are higher, then that guild's tier is higher.

    High end guilds right now have EOK fully on farm; they're filling in folks' 18th-20th bit of gear, or are just collecting currency for Careworn Cases.

    A low tier guild that still qualifies as a raiding guild, right now, would be one that has to gear up apps in Deathseeker's visible armors, because besides the odd bracer or whatever, it'd be months for them to be wearing Velazul's.
    Mid-tier? Obviously I mean any guild in between to be classified like that. Is any version of Anashti still on the weekly docket? Are your main characters with reasonable attendance still needing EOK visibles? Definitely not high end. Do you kill more than Lcea-Droga-Prince? Probably not low end.

    And yeah, if your raid or the events change so that you have to reevaluate? then that happens.
    Annastasya likes this.
  17. wingz-83 Augur

    From release to TBM when I stopped playing. I always held out hope that the devs would change their ways in this area.
    Same discussions are being had now as back in Veil of Alaris was current only there's not as many participating. At the time I argued for smaller one off raids at tier 1..kind of an entrance to raiding for the current expansions maybe a chest with like 2/3 items and maybe bonus chance for spells let 24 people enter for smaller guilds but that was poo pooed at the time. Fielding 40+ people was tough then and I'm sure it's a lot harder now. Final broken back moment for me was the Kracken anniversary raid, they made nothing for casuals and made that super hard. I remember doing that and it being super hard and going..this is for an anniversary time limited event that's supposed to be fun for all or is this a poke in the eye to the majority of your players? Limited dev time had been spent on something after all that so few get to enjoy. It was like watching that Cartmanland commercial from South Park...so much to do at Cartmanland but you can't come but only I Eric Cartman can get in.

    Still looking in from time to time about every few months to see what's changed and dev philosophy is pretty much the same which I guess is technically fine. The game is still here, people are still playing it, same arguments are still happening, but the stagnation is worse than ever.

    -Frotavius , Povar
    Fanra likes this.
  18. Thraine Augur

    people would argue this .. in fact im pretty sure most would agree that TBM was the most broken expansion they have seen in a while as far as gear, raids, basically everything about it was bad, the progression quests were lame and didn't keep your attention. the idea of having the worst raid of the expansion being somewhere in the middle (since the devs didn't even bother with Tiers) was super lame too, imo the hard raid should be at the end.

    So the only reason you like TBM is the same reason why most people hate it
    Genoane and Axxius like this.
  19. p2aa Augur

    How long it took to beat the raid events is more reliable than a number imo as it has been said.
    For me in EoK,
    - Top tier = 1-12
    Upper Top Tier = 1-6
    Lower Top Tier = 7-12
    - Mid tier = 13-24
    Upper Mid Tier = 13-18
    Lower Mid Tier = 19-24
    - Low tier = 25-38
    Upper Low Tier = 25-30
    Lower low Tier = 31-38
    After this, if you haven't had any EoK kill right now after 8 months, you can be imo considered a casual raid guild at this stage.
    I think also that EoK raid difficulty has been better than TBM, easier raids at start, with a difficulty that increases as you walk into higher tiers.
    EnchFWO and Phrovo1 like this.
  20. Axxius Augur

    EoK and TBM are like day and night. EoK was well designed, decently tested and really well tuned (except for the final raid that's basically free loot for getting there). TBM was a bugfest and the tuning was all over the place, tiers meant absolutely nothing.

    The statistics fans are not taking into account how many players might have quit the game during TBM and are just not here to raid in EoK.