Key repeating: fully allowed game-play

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by MasterMagnus, Aug 14, 2021.

  1. Angahran Augur

    if you're talking about m-q-whatever, that is 100% bannable since it a) directly manipulates the data between the client and the server and b) allows you to do things that are not possible, e.g. show all NPCs on a map, warp across zones, show NPC's loot before they are killed, etc, etc, etc.
  2. Accipiter Old Timer


    Then why is it "blessed" (or allowed, or ignored or whatever verb you want to use) on Rizlona? I haven't played true Live in a long time but it feels like about half of Live uses it.
    Corwyhn Lionheart likes this.
  3. Tucoh Augur

    Yeah but what about the many macaroni users who have been using it for years?
    Corwyhn Lionheart and Accipiter like this.
  4. MasterMagnus The Oracle of AllHigh

    I'm not clear on how my thread about First Party Key Repeating gets dragged into Third Party Software land.

    I'm also not clear on how some people aren't clear that all of these things have legitimate uses and illegitimate uses.

    Even with First Party Key Repeating you're only suspended if caught AFK, they can't scan your computer to know.

    With most of the popular third party stuff, you can use it legitimately in a variety of ways, or not. They do have various ways of scanning for usage at all (I would think they only care about abusive use).

    If you're sniffing packets, or taking over/wrapping a shell around the eqgame.exe that is something they can detect and take action on in an automated fashion.

    I think people are fools to interact with any thing that does those later types of things, as well as warping or tracking for non-trackers.
  5. Angahran Augur

    just because they are cheating and haven't been caught doesn't mean they are not cheating.
  6. Tucoh Augur

    Sure, but using macaroni isn't by itself cheating.

    Look, all I'm really saying here is that it's not as cut and dry as whulfgar says.
  7. Angahran Augur

    yes it is.
    Read the EULA.
    You cannot directly read or manipulate the data being passed between the client and the servers.
  8. MasterMagnus The Oracle of AllHigh


    So it's your assertion that 'macaroni' directly reads and/or manipulates EQ data constantly during it's usage in any way?

    And how much have you used it in that capacity to be so certain of this?
  9. Angahran Augur

    I've never used it because that is cheating.
    I can however research.
  10. Geko Elder


    I think this is the post you were looking for - it comes from Piestro.
    Svann2, MasterMagnus and Nennius like this.
  11. Nennius Curmudgeon

    MasterMagnus likes this.
  12. Warpeace Augur

  13. MasterMagnus The Oracle of AllHigh


    Didn't you read the link Nennius posted?

    They suspended people, and when they realized they suspended a bunch of people who were legitimate third party software users, not cheaters, they gave them free time (in 2011).

    They just went through a suspension wave recently, conducted the same way. I don't see them using more modern techniques or having more accurate identification methods.

    So it looks like in 2021 the way to play is use third party apps for non-cheating purposes and hope to win the 'free time' lottery. ;)

  14. MasterMagnus The Oracle of AllHigh

    Thanks to Gecko for finding this

    Piestro wrote:
    I'm not gonna create a list of approved programs, however I will say that common sense is more than enough to tell if you are cheating.
    Parsing - Not cheating

    Item Collectors - Not cheating

    Program that has autofire button (and you are still in the general vicinity of the keyboard) - Not cheating

    Swimming on auto-run into a corner to raise up swimming - Not cheating

    Cheating - not allowed.

    If it's reasonable and not unfair it's not cheating. If it gives you an unfair advantage and allows you to do things that can't be normally done in game it's cheating.
    Randomized likes this.
  15. Abundant Elder

  16. Schadenfreude Augur

    I don't know about modern techniques but they have had internal systems that flag up when you're running certain things for a long time. In itself this information does not seem to be acted on but should the need arise they CAN pull it up.

    It's also worth remembering that WoW was fine with Input Broadcasting Software for many years... until it wasn't?

    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/23558957/policy-update-for-input-broadcasting-software
    MasterMagnus likes this.
  17. Warpeace Augur


    When you come down from your all mighty soapbox, did you actually read what I posted?

    They are suspending people for blatant cheating, BAN a few and they might get the intended effect. Oh no m...q user 001 got a 7 day suspension that will teach them. Not likely, they will most likely keep using it and level another group with little effort. Until people are being banned for those programs its all talk and zero enforcement. How many current content zones / picks can you go into and find groups running non stop not even trying to hide what they are doing?

    And yes their identification methods I would agree are suspect.
  18. Trebla7th Elder

    I am in the same boat as the OP, adamantly against cheating, but also don't want to be disadvantaged because I'm not taking full advantage of tools that I'm allowed to use.

    From the Terms of Service - Section 10:

    Does Pietro's post above indicate express authorization to use programs which "parse", "auto-fire", etc?

    There seems to be a whole lot of implicit authorization (dev posts, lack of action against users)... I guess now we're just pushing back to the question to "what counts as explicit authorization?" And when we answer that it'll be something else. It's turtles all the way down...
    MasterMagnus likes this.
  19. MasterMagnus The Oracle of AllHigh

    It's just a bad idea to Ban people based on a 'criteria' and run that automated. And they have a terrible record at it (my 'free time lottery' comment).

    My soapbox is as follows: (I realize some of the discussions may have blurred some lines)
    _______________________________________________________
    -I have never installed a third party software for EQ (including GINA).

    -Nobody should ever use a third party program to do something your character couldn't legitimately do like Warping, or Tracking on non-tracker.

    -Even if a third party program has legitimate functions you'd like to use, if it also has illegitimate functions, I wouldn't touch it.

    -I suggest if you don't know what a program is doing to accomplish it's functions, like maybe checking memory or sniffing packets, you avoid it at all costs. You don't have to be a programmer and/or hacker to use them, but you should have a general idea what is being done to your computer.

    -If a third party program has only legitimate uses you might feel safe to use it. But I'd keep close track of what updates you download are doing.

    -If you're using First Party, Hardware Macros, Windows functions, etc. You can feel safe they can't know unless you are doing something absurdly obvious and can't answer a say or tell challenge. And they aren't likely to ever take an effort to restrict this nor take an action against someone using this.
    ______________________________________________

    I like using the completely approved in-game Macros, and combining with a Hardware Macro Key Repeat. Undetectable AND completely approved.

    I'm not a lawyer, I can't say if anyone can take Piestro's old statement as Explicit Approval.

    I make this thread to say:

    If you're at all concerned that a third party program may be doing something you don't even know, and could be banned for. Don't use it.

    As The Oracle I can tell you, you aren't going to be banned for using a key repeater IN AND OF ITSELF.

    One of the things we haven't talked much about is Bazaar Price Bots (interesting case. Is it unfair? Is it something you couldn't do by hand?).

    If you use a key repeater to do something 'Unfair' (in Piestro's terms) you can have action taken against you, FOR DOING SOMETHING UNFAIR, not for using a key repeater.
  20. Kakgumu New Member

    Some of you are incredibly dense...and others of you have no earthly idea why a software company makes the decisions it does. I've worked in the software industry for right at 25 years now here in Austin, Tx. I spent nearly a decade at Dell and many more years at AMD...as well as several smaller companies here in town. I'll also state that there are quite a few game dev companies here in town as well. I won't name names, but I spent time at several and have friends at nearly every studio in town.

    A company's actions, game developer or otherwise, follow in their own best interests. This is immediately obvious to most...but several of you have forgotten, or chose to forget, this basic premise. The REAL question therefore is what are the company's "best interests"?? This should lead you to the real heart of the issue. Revenue.

    I've seen a lot of posts in this thread and others screaming and ranting about the lack of enforcement and/or the inconsistent use and application of that enforcement. The general sentiment is that this is due to some type of malaise or incompetence of the developer. Nothing could be further than the truth. This is done VERY intentionally...again, with the developer's own best interests at heart. I'll elaborate...

    Setting aside for just a moment the discussion of what is and what is not against the EULA, if all those people that were breaking the EULA by utilizing 3rd party software were in the neighborhood of 1% of the active player base, the developer could take a very hard line on enforcement. For those that make this a flashpoint issue, the developer gets a gold star. For those that don't care because it doesn't really affect them personally...the developer gets a nod. And for those who were cheating, they leave the game most likely, or, they start up new accounts. Respectively, the first outcome doesn't hit the developer's bottom line very much, and in the second, it's at worst a neutral revenue outcome. All in all, this ends up being a very positive outcome for the developer.

    But, let's examine the opposite end of that spectrum...

    Let's now say that the percentage of the player base that's using "illegal" software is closer to the 25% threshold. If the developer takes the same position, the hardliners are still appeased. The middle-of-the-ground folks are still equally ambivalent. But now, that 25% means a LOT more in lost revenue! In fact, that may very well be getting close to the make-it-or-break-it Mendoza Line for the company/title. And, let me acknowledge that we don't know exactly what these percentages actually are, and it's impossible for us to ever really know. But, there's certainly been speculation that the numbers are far closer to 50% than they are to 25%...on an account by account basis.

    THIS is why you see and feel such an undefined response from DarkPaw/DayBreak. It's in their best interests. It gives them maximum flexibility and doesn't tie them down to a policy that might bite them in the @ss somewhere down the road. It lets them flex some muscle when needed to appease the portion of the player base for which this is a major flash-point issue, and thus keep them subscribed. And, it allows them to streamline costs associated with customer service. These are all big wins for THEM...Even if it's not what YOU want. The very second they come out and say "Program X is fine to use" the floodgates come open! They are not ever going to officially state something like "automation is fine as long as you're not afk". The reason being is that now THEY are responsible for determining if a suspect player(s) is or is not actually afk. And that can be nigh impossible.