Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by InnerDruid, May 6, 2019.
Apparently some have forgotten. Or they are just to arrogant to admit it.
I was in a bottom-feeder guild for months before I switched classes. It was a matter of the trash-tier players moreso than numbers. I app'd to Valhallah and made it. I know exactly what I'm talking about, and you just need to recruit better players, switch servers, app to another guild, or get better yourself.
Just because you can't field a full raid force, doesn't mean it should be imposed on the entire population of EQ.
Just because YOUR guild has issues fielding a full raid force, does not mean this is rampant in the Everquest community.
Actually since you do not remember, I will teach you a bit of history, as I've played straight threw ..
Velious had 75 man raids, As did Luclin.. What came after both ? Planes of Power. What happened in Planes of Power, that caused the raid forces to be shrunk down ?
Raid instances.. Because of the rampant first guild to get elementally flagged would time each kill in order to be able to farm those elemental keys for thier raid force, which in turn absolutely Blocked every other guild on that server from getting Elementally keyed themselves, an thus pushing over into the next tier of raiding, which was Plane of Time.
That is your opinion. This is not a factual statement in any capacity.
Tier one raids..
24 guilds have beaten 1st raid..
22 guilds have beaten 2nd raid..
27 guilds have beaten 3rd raid..
Tier two raids..
20 guilds have beaten 1st raid..
19 guilds have beaten 2nd raid..
20 guilds have beaten 3rd raid..
Tier three raids..
15 guilds have beaten 1st raid..
7 guilds have beaten Maeratas..
Fact is there are absolutely guilds out there that not only defeat said mechanics .. that both require a full or almost full raids .. But they beat them first time encountering them..
But since this tidbit of info does not further your agenda, you decide not to even address THOSE guilds ..
Which show's how feable your side of the debate really is.
You have literally no clue what your talking about. The mechanic's as is right now in Maeratas literally 1 persons death (ANY class) can literally wipe the raid as it is right now.
If in ANY of the current TBL raids any of the CC'ers are unable to or unwilling to and or die before they can CC .. Its a wipe flat out simple as that..
Thus .. proving your entire "More players makes it easier redundancy" theory 100% wrong. Whats more is that I know of several guilds who have PROVEN.. the fact that less players is easier mode as some guilds have beaten maeratas with LESS then a full raid force ..
Go figure .. Less people = easier ..
A guild needs to weed out the weaker players, and failing that .. work with the players an develop them into the type of skilled players they require to beat raids.
If a guild is unable / unwilling to do that then they NEED to be great at recruiting players.
If they are unable to or unwilling to do either of these two things. That guild is not the "average" guild in game right now, an thus no sorry Everquest is not broken .. because of that type of guild.
Just because a guild, that can not pull in Talented players, does not mean Everquest is broken.
Just because a guild, that can not pull in MORE players, does not mean Everquest is broken.
Just because a guild, that can not beat EVERY raid in current expansions, does not mean Everquest mechanic's are too hard ..
If One can't beat current expansion raids there are MULTIPLE reasons why..
1. One clearly lack the "Commited" players to support a full raid force..
2. One clearly lack the "Talent" per player .. to beat mechanic's ..
3. One clearly have way to many (in your words) "incompetent and inexperienced" raiders to actually take down the current expansion raids.
Out of those 3 very real problem's for any guild who has them.. That does in fact not mean Everquest is broken in the least. It simply mean's one is in a suck guild (Not that you are personally I am after all speaking in general terms)
What guild / server are you on ?
After a few pages of reading I became bored so forgive me if someone mentioned this already. I see a lot of these casual players complaining about no raid numbers and all these solutions to dumb it down.
Last I checked the major raiding guilds clear raid content in 1 to 2 days at most. Seems like a nice fit for the so called casual player. If you cant commit to 1 or 2 nights a week I really don"t think there is any help for you at all. Just my 2 cents, right or wrong.
I'll add to this.
The raid tool wasn't introduced until Planes of Power, the only instance was Plane of Time, so up until plane of time you could have as many players as you required. Only 1 group got the exp, but it was fun using mem blur and gravity flux to make sure your group got the exp!
I remember our first win on Aerin'Dar was with108 players, frequently in there was 150 - 170 players doing the Ring War in Great Divide.
I miss outdoor raids where you can throw as many or as few at a raid till you beat it, but I don't miss the agrivation of fighting other guilds to get there first, sitting around waiting for them to wipe if they beat you there, with stern words from the guild/raid leader "DO NOT INTERFER!".
Thanks, Daybreak, for listening.
We just finished a tier one raid in the new content and we are a happy guild. Player numbers are up, we are filling our raids, and even having a few people on the waiting list. Looks like you've got us for another year, whether we get past tier one or not.
You should consider forming an alliance or recruiting. Those numbers are reflective of open/casual raids on a not great attendance night.
im in a mid tier raid guild and we just resiliently beat all 3 gmm events and have stratos and doomfire on farm . its hard . its hard to get people that are not totally into the game to do what they need to . some of the stuff that has helped us is to look to the top end raid guild they have some people that are very active and maybe htey want to raid more nights with there alts or with there mains if lock outs are not an issue there are some people that jsut like to raid , theses guild have been farming players from us for years might as well get a hand to help us stay afloat sometimes when bring in some dps classes in and people see what there class can do it gets them thinking and they start to learn.
Recruiting is not realistic when there are no lower tier guilds to feed off. You tend to get inexperienced unskilled players who stop raiding after a few weeks or months, then it starts all over again. Top tier guilds can recruit by feeding off the mid tier guild's rosters, but the mid tier guilds can't do that.
We do have an alliance, but that causes problems because things are not always equal. Because our guild typically can field mid 40s numbers we have large numbers of people who have to sit out, that causes a fair amount of dissention. Lately we have been fielding close to full raids, but even then because the raiding force has a poor class mix (basically whoever shows up) we are still limited in what we can do. Having 51 people in raid is kind of useless in you have 2 tanks or 5 healers for example. So it is not just numbers, but also what sort of classes that affects things.
The basic problem is that the 54 man format is not friendly to the real world situation most mid tier guilds have to deal with. Raids with lower maximum numbers would help of course, because it is a lot easier to field 36 or 42 people in a balanced makeup than it is to field 54. Smaller raid sizes would mean more healthy raiding guilds and likely a more active raiding scene because it would be realistic for more people to do.
The other issue is artificial dps checks that punish guilds with smaller numbers, even though they otherwise can do the raids. These are usually in the form of fixed timers for adds spawning or the powerup mechanic. Those two things can transform a raid from being trivial to being virtually impossible with even a small decrease in raid force size. So, something that is stupid trivial with 54 might be very difficult with 48 and impossible with 42 simply because of those timers.
I just wanted to chime in by paraphrasing something somebody said while we were talking about this (I would credit the dev if I could remember who said it).
The top end guilds should be doing everything in their power to help the mid-tier guilds. It's good for them in every way. Keeps the game running and all that, but also these are the guilds that bring up the players that you will eventually want for your guild. While, as a dev, I would rather that poaching wasn't a thing, it is. So if you want people t o gather into your fold, help them get better and thrive.
I'm curious .. as you are a dev.. whats your thoughts about those top end guilds who chery pick outta the weaker guilds ? And what do you think those smaller guilds think of the larger guilds cherry picking talent outta their guilds reaction will be ?
Cause as a player who has seen both sides of that .. I personally can tell you from what you posted it seems like the devs are completely outta touch with the reality of the game and exactly that specific part bigly ..
I haven't played any new content since Mercs happened. To me that was the end of social gaming.
What he posted was spot on. Talent is always going to rise past mediocre organizations unless constrained by some other control. It is in the top guilds best interest to keep lower tier guilds alive to allow that talent to develop.
Perhaps the best example of a good set of tiered raid progression is PoP. The lower tier rids were well within the ability of most smaller guilds. In fact I got most of my flags in pickup raids.
well ,your guild do the same in rathe server . and i am pretty sure top guilds do the same in other servers,
*these top end guilds don't even share their strats to beat raids until the end of the expansion usually
*these top end guilds don't even share their strats to beat raids until the end of the expansion usually
A lot of these " top end guilds " have folks streaming there raids LIVE !
Sometimes there is nothing the top end guilds can do to help, I've had a chat with a couple of high end raiders recently on a different server to me and they have given me information on something happening in the raid which you cannot see in the live raid streams, which I'm very thankful for.
But things like lack of DPS there is nothing they can help with. ADPS support has become bigger and bigger and if a guild is missing some those classes there is very little they can do to increase their raid DPS. Current raids have become very dependant on high DPS and the lack of that is what is making the guilds not at the top fail. Asking members to play a class they are not happy/interested in play has in the past caused those members to either leave or quit altogether.
It would be very beneficial to lower guilds if the DPS checks weren't quite so harsh.
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