Is The Warrior Class Dead?

dont forget to factor in mantle/skin line for the knights its comes out pretty much the same across all classes

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=27678&source=Live
Defensive:
1: Increase Melee Mitigation by 45%
45%, not 50%. The innate 5% making a grand total of 50% when under Defensive

Final Stand:
1: Increase Melee Mitigation by 45%
45%, not 50%. The innate 5% making a grand total of 50% when under Final Stand

The question originally raised assumed Defensive/FS was 50% and the innate 5% stacked with it.

Phalanx of One:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/eq:Phalanx_of_One

"This passive ability increases your innate physical mitigation by 1 percent per rank. This ability does not stack with defensive abilities like Defensive, Final Stand, etc."

Undisced Warrior mitigation prior to Phalanx 5%
Warrior mitigation provided by Defensive or Final Stand 45%
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Grand Total 50%
The difference between undisced and disced mitigation prior to Phalanx 45%

Undisced Warrior mitigation after Phalanx 15%
Warrior mitigation provided by Defensive or Final Stand after Phalanx 35%
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Grand Total 50%
The difference between undisced and disced mitigation after to Phalanx 35%

The poster being discussed was under the impression the Phalanx stacked with Final Stand/Defensive's "50%".

Also in 2011 a developer announced abilities like Final Stand would be reduced to on the order of 18 seconds (nothing written in stone)

Roughly a year ago a developer announced on TSW that he was working on his own time to eliminate Final Stand. Did I mention that Phalanx of One reduces the gap between an undisced Warrior (tank parity and numerous changes insure knights can tank anything an undisced Warrior can tank) and a disced Warrior from 45 to 35%.

Please note that throughout I've maintained the fiction that we're talking about melee mitigation. What I believe we are really talking about is the DI contribution of that portion of melee damage that can be mitigated - there is melee damage that can not plus Damage Shields, DoTS, Auras, and DD - combat self-heals btw offset all forms of damage.

Is anyone noticing a trend here? Hmmmm?

Unless you read my post properly ofcourse, in context (I was answering a question regarding the innate DI-1 Warriors get). Then you'd realize I wasn't talking about Final Stand, but about the advantage just the DI-1 gives Warriors. Which is about 1500-1750 points per hit on the hardest hitters etc..

so?
that same dev also posted, a couple of weeks later, that after looking into it the project was completely unfeasible and the entire idea was being scrapped.

but hey, way to try and fearmonger over an aborted idea that literally never had any implementation done.

really? REALLY?
you're trying to cry about 'parity' over the fact that phalanx of one makes you stronger when not disced (relative to being disced) but doesn't make you even stronger when disced?

that has to be about the most pathetic, cry-baby load of garbage i've ever come across.

the persistent and unending trend of you never having any clue what you're talking about?
yeah, i noticed that.

you're absolutely right and looking back at it, i see how i misread the context of what you were saying.

for my part, i apologize for that.

what?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but Iirc it's 0,95xDI not -1DI. Parses showed 20 hit values (keep in mind min hit = DB+DI. Min hit didn't become DB, it became DB + (0.95xDI).

"the advantage", 1500-1700HP's knights take (for example) that Warriors do not? Idon'rt think so. Lets remember that following WoS and some of the things knights go substantial changes including but not limited to raised skill caps, improved effective return of AC from visible AC, BP clickie proc and recourse producers, improved combat self-healing, improved heal weapon procs.

I sat in WoS and parsed and calculated to check the parse results of every defensive ability Warriors had clicked the instant they popped vs a Paladin stunning mobs that could be stunned. Stuns won. I didn't even touch active and passive Paladin self-healing and stuns won.

It's misleading to look at the solitary capabilities Warriors have without taking into account the plethora of tools knights have.

Exactly.........Its shocking how much Knights know about Warriors and how Warriors know so little about Knights. It seems like a lot of these Warriors just fell off the monster mission wagon.

He's meaning your older 35% disc if you actually understand exactly how it works as a Vie type spell and how it differs from your new one and how that mitigates.

@Kelefane dont lump all warriors together there. Some of us here actually do know the knight classes.. A lot better than some knights I have seen posting.

One thing I would like to see shared is for warriors to actually get a reprove rather than 50% for max 7K on a longer cooldown.

You just think these long term veterans don't know what they are talking about. Ask your guild leader about Makavien Kelefane I guarantee he knows me and Repthor knows what hes talking about also so does Battleaxe all long term veterans with vast knowledge.

The funniest thing is we have shown parses not one knight has posted a parse to prove any of us wrong in how the mitigation difference is inside the game. There are many many fights you guys are better equipped to handle regardless if you want to admit it or not.

Also I could very easily max level and aa and gear both a paladin and sk and parse every single encounter in the game but I don't think I should have to do such a thing when they created developer side parsers to create the aggro meter.

When devs gave Warriors the so-called -1DI ability and Defensive was 45% rather than 50% did Warriors gain undisced power? No sir - knights were adjusted to be able to match Warrior undisced survivability.

DON release or patch notes - It has been our [BA:SOE's] goal for Warriors, Paladin, and Shadow Knights to be able to tank all group content. We have achieved that goal.

Heck the fact that knights were able to use shields far more often than Warriors, given shield AC not being subject to the softcap and Shield block, alone exceeded the value of the -1DI in most group content.

Does Phalanx of One open up a survivabilty gap between undisced Warriors and knights favoring Warriors? No sir, SOE has not abandoned Tank Parity (and knight spellboook superiority) in group content - knights not only match Warrior undisced survivability in a lot of content they exceed it.

What happened was the survival bump the Final Stand provides undisced Warriors (<- knights match or exceed undisced Warriors) was reduced. Final Stand now provides less of an improvement from OUR (Warrior, SK, and Pally) base survivability

The dev who wanted to on his own time eliminate Defensive/Final Stand....rather than bob the dog's tail all at once contented himself with removing 25% of it. Oh and charged us AA for the nerf.

Even SK's know.

Pot...kettle...

Most of the warriors posting here are very good players, and do know what they are talking about in context. Battleaxe and I have not always seen eye to eye over the years. BUT, I will say he is pretty much spot on for this debate. Tearsin, Kelefane, you have both relentlessly bogged down the warrior communities discussion with miss information, for the sake of trivial corrections of statements taken out of context. Yes there is some bad knight information going around (its not really important to this issue/debate), but you guys are not free of mistakes either, and you have both been very wrong on numerous contradictory statements as well.

Beta is where the numbers go to the development. Here, it is all a matter of perspective on the discussion at hand. There are various different forms of mitigation to be discussed, and no two people are talking about the same tool sets at the same time. I find in these forums KISS (keep it simple stupid) works best for general discussions because quite frankly half of the people here don't understand either: 1) raw numbers alone and the EQ mechanics behind them or 2) the big picture issues that those numbers should be applied too.

Most agree at this point, if you break down warrior/knight numbers you see large disparity. The developers have been aware of the issue for numerous beta's. What motivated them to add more Knight mitigation tools is honestly beyond me (even you guys). But, as I mentioned before, all of that aside even the parses below, the issue warriors face right now is big picture lack of class desirability, and game use.

Here is an example from an average night of what Warriors are seeing on raids. My guild has a solid healing team today. This is a rotation on T3 events for the night: Warrior/Knight/Warrior/Knight. Event combine for 900 seconds. Warriors died 2-3 each, knights died once each. I took 5million damage total, other warrior took 5.5 million damage. Paladin A (who actually tanked longer) took 4.5 million. SK-A took 3.5 million

Warrior average hit for the event was 17500 (max hit was 37,000).
Knight average hit was 16400 (Max hit was 36,000).

Paladin A's healing parse merged for the event in MT role (was number 4 on my heal parse and near top of other warriors parse): Paladin A: 1.35 million, Cleric A: 750k, Cleric B 500k, Druid A: 350k, Cleric C 300k......On down.

Shadow Knight A's parse: 1 million, Cleric A: 650k, Paladin A: 500k, Cleric B: 400k, Cleric C, 300k.....

The point is, we can talk about skill (AA/Disc) A and skill (AA/Disc) B all day long. BUT in game play here are the consistent nightly results. Our warriors are amazing, our knights are amazing. However, Knights play circles around us in practice because of the parses above. So beyond the assumption that we are very close in damage intake now, average and max hit. These numbers are almost always the same on raids now days (successful tank parity). Knights just pull light years ahead in their health recovery and vast utility. Both in group synergy, ability to greatly modify incoming heals, special tools (grapples, AE agros, range tools etc), on top of their DPS advantages.

Where am I / are we missing the problem? Where does splitting hairs on DI really matter?

I would love to see how much knights would complain if their main dps disc was from level 58 (our second best is lvl 78)and their best avoidance disc was from lvl 55 and their best defensive disc was from lvl 72 without even having a rank 3 . The only special attack besides aa we have is shield topple and it's from 83. Our last upgrade to avoid frontal ae damage was lvl 77 and has a 10 minute reuse. They took away two of our class defining traits 1) tanking with 2 swords (better then a knight with a shield) , and 2) spell avoidance( we had innately higher chances of resisting spells). 3/4 of our useful abilties are either locked out or linked so we can't use them in unison or succession. Half of our swing hate was removed unless we want to die. Our ac/hp in gear advantages has almost completely been removed. Not to mention reprove only being knight and our version only blocking 7 k damage.

And then you guys actually even have the slightest thought you are behind in anything . LoL Try not being able to heal and have all the craptastic stuff we have.

Being disadvantaged as a tank by mimicking a Ranger (<- not a tank) wasn't class defining.

Nothing was taken away from our ability to tank with two swords (which many Warrior did despite DWing 24/7 being OBVIOUSLY wrong for a heavy plate tank).

With us tanking with two swords and knights routinely using shields it was obvious shield use was an unfair survival gap closer for knights.

Shield use was made more practical for Warriors. There were Warrior only shields from the beginning, Warriors had greater bash skillcaps than knights early on, shield AC not being subject to the softcap, and Shield Block all were true long before Shield Specialist gave us the shield appropriate 1Hders we should have had but did not from Day 1.

Calling DW Warrior class defining is almost as bad as calling being reliant soley on RNG taunts and 1 weapon that aggro procced as class defining. Shields are clearly defensive items, an offhand sword is not a shield. They, better late than never, fixed us.

Defensive abilities providing us with the unmatched ability to survive the most brutal battles but little advantage vs. lower DI group and raid yardtrash - now that's Warrior Class Defining (and should not be, but was, shared).

As other Warriors have pointed out here and on TSW - shields being equally practical for all three heavy plate tanks as an archetype characteristic makes obvious sence and its time to move on understanding that we gained the world when shields were made more practical for Warirors and only lost the ability to twirl batons with streamers in both hands.

Nothing needed to be taken away, it was a nerf by stagnation. Shields became the standard for mitigation and mob DPS was inflated accordingly. 2h became nonviable in both cases, despite upgrades on the DPS side. DW was completely ignored altogether.

I realize it is a personal victory for you, but it came at the expense of the Warrior class. Our overall defensive situation is WORSE today. Warriors have become a 'special teams' class and our tanking stance options went from 3 to 1.

We have already agreed to disagree on this subject years ago bud . Rangers are a hybrid of our class so of course they can use 2 swords or a sword and a shield. And it was class defining see epic 1.0. Ignoring the facts to achieve personal goals is not a very good tactic RL does not matter in any way shape or form in this game.

Shields had long been the standard for mitigation - shield AC not subject to the softcap and Shield Block.
Shield vs. off hand weapon - which prevented more damage? Shield sirs.

There were some Warriors who saw themselves as Madmatigan or something despite the fact we were dressed in heavy plate and shields were the heaviest plate around.

The other two classes in our archetype got the memo. For the most part they did not tank with 2Handers. Which meant knights got the benefit of shield AC not subject to the softcap and Shield Block while the third heavy plate tank in the Tank Archetype usually did not.

DWing 24/7 did not put Warriors at an advantage - it put them at a disadvantage.

Fortunately people stepped up (Frodlin first noticed this issue and Yoda confirmed it) and got it fixed. The result was a triumph for the Warrior class. Non-raiding Warriors reported that they needed to use shields vs. challenging content which at least temporarily elevated all 3 tank classes above non-tanks that were tanking.

See Epic 1.0 - one tanking 1Hander and one not tanking 1Hdr (which I and many others didn't use). See 2.0 - 1- tanking 1Hander. See our historically superior bash skills,...

DW had no more business being a default tanking set up for a heavy plate tank than 2H did - both are clearly DPS oriented since they obviously do not focus on providing the maximum protection.

One principle of engineering is that you add things that are needed and fit and you change things that don't. Ignoring facts isn't a useful tactic, I agree.

You know I gave up on this besides stating we lost a class defining trend or whatever you want to call it and also lost half our swing hate. No reason to bring up all that stuff I already know about and how that is how the game became that is not how it started.

Maybe in your history books but certainly not in EverQuest. Your personal opinion on this matter is dwarfed by the innumerable number of mobs felled while being tanked by dual wielding Warriors for over a decade.

When did this supposed standard start? Underfoot? The expansion that gave birth to a freshly handicapped Warrior class?