Is it even acceptable to not be a boxer these days?

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by BreakmanDX, Jul 12, 2022.

  1. BreakmanDX New Member

    Up until now, I've played classic a bit as a kid and TLPs once every few years. I know boxing has always been a thing, more and more as time's gone on and more and more accepted (even trying to talk about it AT ALL in the discord in any way other than raucous support and praise gets you dogpiled, for example lmao) and I get that the majority of the most active, long-term players are either older and richer or loaded with more krono than they know what to do with these days, and decide the benefit of boxing when it's allowed is worth pursuing. I get that it's become pretty much a part of the culture at this point and macro/boxing guides are just freely spread across the community in broad daylight, I know that the devs refuse to ever try a non-boxing TLP even once and even the idea being vaguely brought up freaks the hell out of a ton of the playerbase, and even 'truebox' isn't really enforced at all because more subs / krono being bought for more accounts = more money, blah blah blah. I get it, I get it. I used to HATE it but over time I've grown to try and force myself to accept it more because it's certainly not going away; I accept just hunting random mid-level mobs for raw plat and fine steel instead of ever being able to camp any named in the game when literally everyone has 3+ level 50 mages sitting on every one in every channel. I've come to accept that parties of like 1 or 2 people + me filling out all 6 spaces is acceptable as long as they're even remotely competent at actually playing boxes. I've come to accept a LOT of things so that my enjoyment of TLPs isn't diminished so bad by how other people choose to play their game and spend their money.

    But it's come to the point... I don't think I've had a single group in the 2 months of this server without at LEAST one or two boxes in/out of group... with more people getting more lazy and complacent to let their in-group boxed priests just sit there at full mana half the time, to let their bards just literally afk /melody and nothing else at all. And as I've been partying in the hole lately, I'm nearly *the only person* in *any* group I join without *AT LEAST* one extra out-of-group 50 healing, buffing, etc. If I bring it up in any way, people snap at me for just playing 'easy mode', or start bragging about how they actually box 4-6 or even more but only 'felt like' having one down here to help at the moment...Guilds are filled with boxes and people beg for gear you could badly, badly use for your main as an upgrade for their boxes even if their main's decked out to hell and back, and classes like the priests seem utterly pointless to play when there's an absolute freakish surplus of clerics, shamans and druids being boxed around every group in every space at a high level. It's become rare to even see any priests IN a group, everyone already leveled theirs during exp events and just park them around as extra boxes.

    As someone who doesn't box, doesn't want to box and is never going to box, do I literally even have any use or point in the game anymore? I played ENC main specifically on this server to try and feel like I was playing something that it's best to main and pay attention to so I can do my best and make the parties flow easy without feeling like I have any empty time I could be doing more stuff on a box, that people would *expect* at this point, but even that is uttelry unnecessary at this point -- not only do MANY high-level groups have, yes, out-of-group 50 enchanters buffing, slowing and CCing, but even without ENCs everyone on the entire server has a seemingly infinite supply of storebought clarity potions, haste and no need at *all* to CC even in the hole due to so many out-of-group priests healing, rooting, slowing and even tanking. I'm literally sitting there scrambling to do anything I can to "feel alive" in groups, throwing incidental buffs like brilliance/insight, str/ac debuffs, wimpy enc dots, charming the best stuff I can and making sure everyone has celerity instead of just augmentation, but it still really honestly feels like my lack of presence would slow the party's speed by like 1% at most. And I'm NEVER anywhere near as geared as everyone's boxed alts, much less mains, no matter how much I play or how much money I accrue by whatever means necessary, lmao.

    Is there anything I can do WITHOUT boxing to feel like I even belong in this game or am any help to anyone at all? I keep coming back to EQ because of that feeling of interdependence and comradrie, but now that everyone solves that for themselves with more or less every single semi-serious player having at LEAST one box and endless storebought pots and buffs, is there anything I can do to even vaguely get that feeling fulfilled? I'm serious here, this is one of my favorite games and definitely my favorite MMO (and I've played pretty much all of them) and I don't want my love for it to just be squashed forever at feeling like there's nothing I can even do to have any weight or purpose or help anyone out in the game.

    Maybe a main bard with full attention and full use of all my potential utility? Maybe a main monk pulling machine with every ounce of funds going toward pushing him to his absolute limit, especially as iksar are almost out? Is there really anything?

    TL;DR: no one doesn't multibox, at LEAST 2 and often more characters, usually played well, well equipped and willing to help groups oog; what, if anything, can I as a solo player do to feel relevant?
    Stymie likes this.
  2. Xyroff-cazic. Director of Sarcasm

    Didn't read the entire post, but yes being a non-boxer is totally acceptable. Find an active guild, make some friends, be active in forming groups. I've been playing as a single box on Mangler from classic until now (currently House of Thule expansion). No issues finding groups, no issues completing achievements I want, farming augs I want, etc.
    BreakmanDX likes this.
  3. YourJobNotYourLife Elder

    A well played cleric is very amazing. I've never seen a box cleric do as well as someone who only plays a cleric and is good at their job.

    If you only ever stick to the first few expansions then yeah, a box can do just about anything as well as a main. Get into later eras where there's more complexity and more abilities and you'll start seeing a lot bigger difference.

    Also, way too many words.
    TheChosenOne likes this.
  4. code-zero Augur

    Wait a minute, you are getting groups and doing stuff but you don't like that the people who invited you in the group aren't having fun the right way?

    There are single account players on Rizlona apparently having no issues at all. I'm not sure what the problem is really
    Appren likes this.
  5. Protocol Dragon Defender

    There is nothing more valuable in EQ than a player who plays one character very well and doesn't cause drama, need constant attention, or cry over trivial matters.
  6. TheChosenOne Augur

    Mischief kind of solved that problem with the random loot, you can just adventure to whatever zone you want, any named you kill will have the same loot table as all the other named mobs that are the same level.. So there is no specific camp spots for the krono farmers to target, at least as easily

    Most guilds I've been in solve this problem by having people declare Mains and Alts, and there are different DKP rules for Alts where they can't win something over a Main. If your guild is giving out loot to alternate characters over their Mains, you may want to find another guild

    A Main cleric will always be wanted in groups over a box, and especially on Raids. Shamans are usually wanted, but there are other classes that overlap including Enchanters for Slow so they aren't in demand as much as Clerics. Druids I dont feel are very in demand at all, and is mostly a Boxing class for the ports and buffs. I think in later expansions they get more powerful and fill out a better niche role

    Of course, people are always going to prefer a primary and someone paying sole attention to one class in their group/raid, assuming you're playing a class that is in high demand.

    Its all about how fast you kill stuff for efficiency, and there is no better class from Classic until like OoW or beyond to help the group kill faster than an Enchanter. If your group needs all of your regular buffs, great, thats just a bonus... Enchanters in groups are all about their Charm pets, which I've parsed many times in the past (before the 20% nerf to their dmg mind you) where the chanter pet was accounting for about 50% of the total groups damage

    Those out of group enchanters are just buff mules, you're the engine that runs the group with a BEAST charmed pet that speeds up the rate at which you can melt stuff down. There will be times in future expansions where the ability to CC will matter, and there are some raids that require Enchanters who are on point with CCing certain adds, etc in order to be successful in raids. Sure they could bring along a box mule enchanter to buff the ENTIRE RAID (yikes), but when it comes to those encounters that require focus and attention you'll shine

    The Hole isn't some elite dungeon, all you really need to be doing in the Hole as an enchanter is making sure you have a really good charm pet that is buffed, keep haste on the melees and clarity on the casters.. and thats about it. As you go into future expansions and better dungeons, you'll need more of your toolbelt.. and the content you can do as an Ecnhanter if you bring alone a cleric friend or something is pretty ridiculous, so challenge yourself that way...

    Enchanter is the most overpowered class in the game BY FAR for most of the early expansions, so why so glum? Enjoy being the closest thing there is to a player controlled God character in the game, enjoy being the engine that drives all groups XP machines and enjoy the high life that comes with being a chanter... Roleplay a Diva enchanter for giggles, most of them are anyway so you'll fit right in

    If i see someone in my group with a storebought clarity potion, im just like, oh cool i dont have to rebuff them for 4 hours! I mean think about it, they had to pay like $2 just to have Clarity on them for 4 hours, while you have it on your spellbar for free.

    You're winning.

    You just need to take a deep breath and wait to get out of Classic EQ. The only challenging zones in Classic are Kedge Keep, Plane of Fear and Plane of Hate... and Enchanter uses all 3 zones as their personal little playpen

    Bards are very busy classes, at least good Bards are... You're usually the primary puller in a group, so that can be a game in itself if you want to push yourself to be an awesome puller.. groups will love you for it and its certainly not something that someone could provide on their Box bard. Once Planes of Power hits, Bards become better pullers than Monks

    Shaman is also a pretty busy class, you're always buffing, slowing, dotting, debuffing, healing or managing your mana with Cannibilize. Has a pet as well for additional micro management.. If you want busy, play a Shaman in Classic on a Raid... That will keep you busy and feeling wanted..

    You're a god **** Enchanter man, start acting like it
    BreakmanDX and code-zero like this.
  7. TheChosenOne Augur

    I think its important to note what Class you're playing as tho, as that may not be the same experience for someone playing other classes
  8. ForumBoss Augur

    Agreed, if complaining about boxers is one of the qualifiers.
  9. Rhythar Augur

    Boxers are generally bad for community. They break immersion, reduce grouping opportunities, and create a large imbalance between players. I suspect that boxers ultimately lose the company money by driving away normal folk. I think WoW did the right thing by putting in rules to reduce boxing.

    Having said that, I think the best thing would be to split servers into boxing and low-or-no-boxing like Rizlona and Aradune, although the company would need to take steps to make sure the rules were properly enforced. There's plenty of players who want to box, and there's plenty of people who don't. One group of players just shouldn't be allowed to keep screwing over the other, intentionally or not.

    It's not normal if 1-boxing isn't the norm anymore. Too many ordinary players have been lost, and the company should do some course correction.
    Alikat likes this.
  10. TheChosenOne Augur

    Typically its because of the holy trinity classes that lead to boxing. Once you get to Planes of Power, you need a Tank for basically all group content going forward. You also need a way to slow mobs (at least for a bunch of expansions past OoW), and you need a way to Heal

    When you're a 1 boxer, its never an issue usually on a new server with booming population and groups everywhere, but later on population dwindles and you can spend 1 hour or more LFG depending on what class you are.

    I made sure to be a tank on Mischief, which is even easier with the free trade in terms of gearing up. I love playing 1 box, but i made a Shaman box because it allows me tremendous flexibility with my TIME, if i only have 45 minutes say to log and do something before i have to go pick my son up or many other random tasks that come up, I can log in and potentially grind some XP, or go after a quest mob, etc in that timeframe if i have a tank and shaman ready to roll, whether i do it as a Duo or invite other people (obviously giving them a heads up i only had 45 minutes), it gives me that flexibility

    The issue later becomes AAs, it becomes a vicious cycle because you want to make sure your box account stays somewhat relevant in the AA department so you can continue to have that flexibility

    If they made some universal rule change to the game where they didnt allow boxing on any level, the only classes I think I could play as would be Tank, Cleric and MAYBE enchanter to ensure i always had the highest chance of getting a group

    Once you start getting deeper and deeper into the expansions, basically starting at PoP but definitely by OoW and beyond, you need a tank for all content or you're going nowhere and doing nothing except for killing greens and maybe light blues until you find a group with a tank
  11. code-zero Augur

    This is all fantasy stuff. Without being able to 2 box and use mercs when necessary I'd have quit the game a long long time ago and that holds for most players. 2 and 3 boxers are the rule over the 6 box crews and they have kept the game alive. If you get into the history of the game you'll find that some of the devs in the mid '00's hated EQ and really wanted it to sunset so they could develop more of the sorts of stuff that utterly failed. Boxers stopped that from happening
    Genoane, Appren and TheChosenOne like this.
  12. Xyroff-cazic. Director of Sarcasm

    I'm playing as a solo cleric. But there's plenty of others in my guild playing solo with all kinds of different classes - tanks, melee/caster dps, healers. The class you're playing is infinitely less important than your guild and/or social network when it comes to being successful as a non-boxing player.
    TheChosenOne likes this.
  13. Rhythar Augur

    I do think 2-boxing is reasonable. It gives a player a lot more power and flexibility without harming grouping or immersion too much. I think 3-boxing is where the negatives start to outweigh the benefits.
    Alikat, TheChosenOne and code-zero like this.
  14. Koshk Augur

    If you're having fun, keep playing. Otherwise, don't. It's really that simple.

    As far as these other words you're using:
    * Being "useful"
    * Having a "purpose"
    * Feeling "relevant"
    * "Belonging"
    * Living to your "potential"

    No one can change how you feel about yourself, except you. If just playing isn't enough, you'll have to search carefully for a small and dedicated group of friends to play with. A cadre of friends who directly or indirectly trigger these feels you're looking for.

    Otherwise, in PUGs and raids? Yes, everyone has alts who can do everything. Even if you -do- stand out? I get the impression you're probably never going to -feel- like you do.

    Try not to judge yourself too harshly, and just enjoy the ride.
    BreakmanDX and code-zero like this.
  15. error Augur

    Nobody expects oog support in a pug. I've leveled a lot of characters on TLPs and it's been fairly uncommon to even have one person bring a max level box to PL the group, I don't think I've ever seen 5+ max level boxes PLing a pug. I doubt a pug would even be able to make effective use of all that, pugs usually go to popular camps in popular zones which means there's a good chance you'll be waiting on respawns even with no external aid.

    And yeah, a guy in Unrest advertising his level 50 oog enchanter probably will get a group pretty easily, but that's exactly because not everyone is bringing one. If a solo player is routinely having trouble finding a group on an early TLP it's not because they don't have an oog box, most likely they're either playing at the wrong hours or they're playing a less desirable class.
    TheChosenOne and code-zero like this.
  16. Healiez Augur

    The number of chill boxers out there FAR FAR outweighs the number of toxic boxers.

    The problem is some people put all boxers in the toxic category and immediately make life difficult for them. It did not happen often, but I did occasionally get harassed by solo players for boxing, when they had no prior engagement with me.

    Try talking to some boxers, I would frequently drop a box for a random solo player so they could get some exp and loot. I would even go as far as to only roll on one toon IF I needed the item. The only time I wouldnt if I had just popped a group exp potion, or a new expansion hit and I was grinding my AA. Yes I would sometimes put on conditions like, I would be happy to drop a box for you, but I am specifically after item XXXXXX if you dont care about that I will happily bring you in and share all the other loot with you.

    As to this "A solo player will hands down play better then a boxed character". Stop deluding yourself. This is rarely true. Early EQ IS NOT a hard game, and its easily possible to play 2-3 characters to their full potential as one human. Maybe someone trying to play the trinity, that is new to boxing might have a few issues. If you make your hotkeys and macro's correctly on the boxes, its completely trivial**.

    As to the comment about some boxers in guilds getting loot over a main. If that person brings his cleric to every single raid, is a vital part of the heal team, and you make 30% of raids as a casual, I dont see the issue with them giving the box loot over you. Most guilds I have been in on TLP's rely on boxes to some degree, and an ungeared box is generally little help to the raid. They need some gear. Granted every guild I have been in has some rules. Usually it is something like boxes have their own DKP they can spend, and mains=boxes up to X dkp and once the item is worth more then that its mains>boxes. The X is usually a pretty low amount, so if you arent willing to spend more then X for the item its obviously not that important. It also REALLY helped cut down on collusion (we used a bid system)

    As far as the box bard just sitting there playing melody, yes its lazy, but at least the bard is being 80% effective by doing that... I will say, not using your bard to pull is a huge mistake though!

    As far as some people (especially specific classes) having trouble finding a group. Yah thats a problem in this age of information when everyone hears about these insane groups with a charm pet clearing entire zones and getting crazy exp. So as a person playing a less desired class a lot of players have this mindset that you will significantly hinder their exp. Find me a zone, that can support a buffed, hasted charm pet. I have tried it, it doesnt exist. Pulls start getting incredibly long, and that OMG meta group is maybe getting 5-10% more exp an hour at the expense of their puller having to drag mobs halfway across the zone. If the zone is even remotely camped, good luck finding enough mobs. You could keep the entire area clear charm pet or no. The only time it really matters is off hours where you get a huge chunk of the zone to yourself, or if you are ahead of the curve.

    ** By hotkeys and macros I am talking about in game, and not talking about the tpp that shall not be named.
  17. Terranos Master

    People like to repeat the mantra "well played main is better than... blah blah blah" But that doesn't really change that a lot of people are perfectly fine with having their poorly played box or later on a merc in the group for reasons stated above, their box needs aa too, their box needs gear too etc.

    Some people will drop their box, others won't. Which creates an imbalance if you play a regularly boxed class such as Healers or Support classes as a main.

    Having said that, what people say about being sociable, competent, joining a good guild etc go a long way to overcoming that disadvantage

    But if you play in a manner that makes you barely distinguishable from a box there won't be much incentive for people to drop theirs.
  18. Pappasalt Augur

    I'm getting to the point I loath boxing.

    I guess for clarification, I loath most people that box...not the idea of boxing. If you are running boxes to get things done and don't mind bringing others along and sitting boxes if asked, no big deal imo. But between the fact that most people would rather play an MMO by themselves entirely and then that unless utilizing automation a box will take away focus from the main character on a raid and normally not being better than another player I find it silly.

    And this stems from someone who has advocated for the removal of truebox since early on Selo. However I find the entire idea silly when it comes to how it's handled by the people doing it and the fact that normally real people will be superior and others can't seem to grasp that.
    Alikat likes this.
  19. Gheed Is not reading your response

    Man that's a big wall of BS.

    Any guild that is not using DKP is a bad guild, leave it. Any guild that is giving people's 3rd, 4th, or 5th alts gear over mains that need while simultaneously not using DKP is a horrendous guild. Fortunately, these don't really exist and you are blatantly exaggerating.

    I could agree that some of the very profitable camps have 2-6 mages at them in, and this is the most important part, ONE OR TWO OF THE PICKS. Saying that every single profitable camp in every pick is monopolized by box armies is simply not true and I don't think I will waste my time proving this to you.

    You want to camp items to make plat "solo" so you don't have to share it with people. That guy playing 4 characters also wants to camp items to make plat "solo" so he doesn't have to share it to people. Yet somehow, that guy is the problem and you are the one in the right. This logic always baffles me.

    As for out of group box help... I really don't understand how this is a problem to you? It speeds up your kill speed and alleviates player duties while also providing LITERALLY NO DOWNSIDE for you... they can't even roll on the loot!

    I can't actually believe that an out of group enchanter doing the buffs so that you don't have to clarity 5 people every 26 minutes is ticking you off. As far as feeling useless, I don't know what to tell you. You do the most DPS in a group setting out of any class in the game. You have the best CC out of any class in the game. Who cares about you not needing to cast clarity?

    If your group doesn't "need" CC then your puller is doing a bad job or you're simply in a bad group. I also do not believe that all groups you join have every member "chugging store-bought clarity or haste pots". If somehow this has been the case for you... who cares? Buffing individual people every 16-24 minutes in classic is probably the worst part of this era.

    Most of your post seems to be about you not feeling fulfilled or needed in the game. If you think about it... maybe that's why some people box? Maybe they enjoy having a lot of responsibilities in group/raid settings. Maybe they enjoy feeling "needed" by other people in the game. Maybe they are like you and want to buff their group on 4 different characters every 30 minutes. I don't know.

    I box because I like to log on and do whatever I want to do in the game when I want to do it. I don't like sitting around looking for people or "needing" other people in a group setting. I play with other people in raid settings, I do what I want to do in group settings.

    I've played no box servers like p99 and they aren't for me. Oldschool Everquest is just too old/simple/easy of a game for me to feel enthralled by the magic of playing a singular toon like its 20 years ago. This is probably why lots of solo people in pickup group are half afk anyways.

    OP, try a puller or add a box :D

    You weren't loathing it when I gave you that free tacvi axe :p
  20. LeetKronolord Journeyman

    Not trying to be rude but your post is not even a brainfart it's brain dysentery.

    I played EQ back in the day up to GoD like almost everyone here, played Ragefire and Agnaar for a month and decided to be invested long term this time and the toxicity decreased by a whole lot since the introduction of /picks. I two box, I didn't even two box from the begining, I leveled my second one when my main was 50. Fact is, you can easily make two kronos per month just playing the game.

    The only named you can't camp are Efreeti and Frenzy. Those camp are bad xp wise and at 50 you're better of anywhere else, especially in hate or fear.

    Kind of true but I don't see the issue if the box are playing correctly. I had TWO guys bad at it, one couldn't heal and the other was playing two melee and breaking mez left and right.

    It's kind of acceptable if there is already a puller in group, bard dps is bad and manasong range is also bad. Slightly off topic but for everyone around here : No your bad isn't not playing manasong, you're out of range.

    Find a guild that is better at loot distribution. You can and should switch guild until you find the one that is good for you.

    Of course, what did you except with two month of classic with two xp events ? I understand that some people are more casuals than the others but if you're not already 50 honestly you're on the lower end of the playerbase, don't take that as an offense everybody as its life but still it's a reality.

    This is the biggest nonsense of your post and I hope the following will clear that up and show you that you are in no way useless if you play your class correctly. See I was the same, I main Enc and did not want to box from the beginning for the same reason as you.

    What you have to understand is that most people want you for 3 things, in that order : Clarity > CC > DPS. But in fact you're there for 4 things : PL Them > DPS > Clarity > CC. When you play an Enc you don't say Enc xx lfg you say Enc xx lfm.

    See, when someone ask for a DPS in channels, they probably already have an Enc, it doesn't matter you send them an offer. If they say they need a dps not an enc you move on and be glad you probably dodged a bullet with that group, it's not like you won't find another group in 10 minutes anyway.

    CC in classic are borderline useless but it's a quality of life that make a group flow, same as clarity. If that is covered by an Enc oog, fine. You're still the best DPS of your group by a large margin, bar an overtwinked melee, you do at least 40% of the dps of your group in most cases. In the hole a grouped enc is almost mandatory only for dps reasons. An oog charming enc can KS in some case, just to show you how much power you have.

    In the hole charm "an elemental capturer" or a Golem if you're bold, buff them with haste not augmentation (aug is for melee plebs) and see how mobs melt.

    If you don't believe me install a dps parser like EQlogparser and see for yourself, although this one doesnt register charmed mob every fights. Or Gameparse, although this one is not user friendly and the UI is some Win 3.11 level.

    And honestly, if I'm with my enc oog, I'll just toss clarity / haste (not aug, haste) to ease you on mana and let you do your job. I'll start CCing only if things go bad and you're overwhelmed, it's more of a back up than anything at this point and it's more relaxing for me.

    And again, you see a lot of oog boxes because you're late on your leveling. Almost everyone had a 50 at the end of the first month, what do you do the second month ? ? A lot of people single boxed to 50 and made a second account because they were bored to death. Hell, I leveled to 50, made a second account with a krono and leveled to 50. Then last week I sold a krono on mischief to twink two characters and started leveling a box there.

    Two month of classic is a mistake, period. If you're not 50 by the end of the first month of classic it's fine, go level in kunark in half the time it would take in classic. Instead of going to Guk for the bazillionth time go to City of Mist for a change.

    1) Playing without boxing if perfectly fine and people will never tell you something as long as you don't tell them something about their box or oog.
    2) Everyone has an oog because farming at least one krono per month to pay for that second account is really not hard and two month of classic allowed almost everyone to do that.
    3) Complaining about boxes when you main an Enc is kind of ridiculous, if you main a druid I could understand your frustration.
    4) As an Enc in classic you will always find a group and your primary job is to charm and DPS harder than anyone.
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