Inverse MoTM?

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Calzonae, Jun 7, 2021.

  1. Calzonae Journeyman

    Can we get code to make old deplorable content explorable / soloable?

    I play on TLP and it seems silly to have old content be unavailable for personal exploration of events. Also, the ability to farm old content is somewhat class based... wiz vs sk as a for instance. Is there a better way?
  2. Xyroff-cazic. Director of Sarcasm

    This has already existed for many years.

    Skuz and Yinla like this.
  3. Zarkdon Elder

    I think he's getting at making raid bosses significantly weaker so they can be soloed/single grouped by all classes while still level appropriate.

    I think would be great if they could do it. I missed a lot of old raids, it would be funnto make another character and go through the expansions I missed with the character.
  4. Duder Augur

    You already can, they release new TLP servers that start at classic every year.
    Skuz likes this.
  5. Xyroff-cazic. Director of Sarcasm

    You think it would be great if raid bosses were weak enough they could be killed solo in era? I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that's a pretty unpopular opinion. By and large, people like to raid current content with other players, not just show up and solo their own raid gear.

    Their current system removes MoTM once the content is "5 years" old in terms of the original timeline, which is closer to 1 year on a TLP schedule. If you missed out on old raids, you have a lot of options to go check them out! Roll on a new TLP and play through them with an actual raid force, or roll on non-TLP server and go stomp them on your own with a level 85+ character. Don't have an 85+ character? Roll a character on the Miragul server and you're immediately level 85 and you can go solo tons of old raids right away.

    Making current expansion raids hilariously trivial for actual raid forces on TLP's so players can just solo whatever they want is a pretty ridiculous suggestion.
    Skuz and Duder like this.
  6. Zarkdon Elder

    Since this is the veterans lounge and not the TLP forum I figured it was fairly obvious that I was referring to old raids on Live servers not raids on TLPs.

    However, since that wasn't clear, I shall restate: it would be nice for old raids on live servers to be nerfed enough that one or two players, who are level appropriate, could complete those raids and get the storyline/experience of long gone expansions without having to play on a TLP.
  7. Xyroff-cazic. Director of Sarcasm

    It's literally a thread with MoTM in the title. Mitigation of the Mighty is a TLP specific mechanic. And the OP says "I play on TLP." But yes obviously not about TLP, you got me!

    What raids are you referring to specifically? Lots of old raids are soloable now by level appropriate characters on non-TLP servers.
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  8. Zarkdon Elder

    Inverse MoTM (title of the thread) is not a TLP mechanic, it doesn't exist.

    I'm fairly certain any raid from DoN, an certainly not the final raid, on isn't soloable by someone in the level those raids were intended to be done. I am not an expert in old EQ raids, I didn't play for many years.

    I'm sure that there are far more sage players that could give better examples.
  9. Xyroff-cazic. Director of Sarcasm

    Lol, ok! If you wanna die on the hill that this thread isn't about TLP when the OP states "I play on TLP" that's your call. Seems like an odd battle to me.

    And yeah, "soloing" (i.e. moloing) raid mobs somewhat close to their original level probably ends around Luclin content. Maybe some lower tier PoP targets. After that you'll certainly want to over-level a bit or find a few friends to come along.
  10. Calzonae Journeyman

    So... I do raid on TLP but some of the content is not ~good enough for a guild to do more than once and again some content cannot be mechanically done by a lone individual regardless of how old it is. (Witness players bellyache about BiC - Inktua) Players will come and go as circumstances allow, but if a new or returning player shows up then it is up to established guilds whether they get up to speed or not.

    The grouping and raiding is at top level and within the bounds of maybe the back two expansions. Therefore, everything else should be soloable and by every single player class... otherwise why does the content greater than two expansions back exist at all?
  11. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    I don't see any reason to make old content easier for people and as for exploration of old content should at least be happy that TLP has ways for everyone to access it instead of hoping that it isn't just getting killed as soon as it spawns.
  12. Calzonae Journeyman

    So that new-to-game players are able to catch themselves up, and this includes completion tic marks, rather than relying upon the kindness of others (laugh).
  13. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    If you are catching up you are better skipping the raids for more current group content.
    Niskin likes this.
  14. Niskin Clockwork Arguer

    The restrictions on raids to require more than one player to start them are more inhibiting than the actual difficulty of old raids. If they reverse-MOTM'd them, it would likely be enough expansions later that the difference wouldn't matter much. As Waring pointed out, the speed at which you can level through these expansions once they are old is so fast that not much from the raid would be worthwhile. Maybe clickies and unique stuff, but not armor or weapons.

    It would be a lot of work to go touch all those mobs and mechanics and set the right era to adjust them in. Some raids get broken or act weird when high level players come back and do them. Making them easier would exacerbate that, and require even more testing.
    Duder likes this.
  15. Calzonae Journeyman

    We have no idea how hard this is to do, nor do we know what sweat (or dollars) EQ is willing to put back into EQ.

    I am in support of gifting back content to new players and that's all.
  16. Niskin Clockwork Arguer

    This gets debated a lot on the forums, and the answer is, sometimes we do and sometimes we don't.

    To put MoTM on a mob, they have to modify data for that mob or some equivalent of that, we know that much. To put reverse MoTM on them would be the same, different buff, but still a buff (debuff I guess, same difference). Extrapolate that out to all the mobs involved in even a single raid, triggered spawns, different things that can happen. What about the effects that are cast? Mob can be easy, but if the AoE DoT it casts is insane, and isn't changed, you are still humped.

    Now extrapolate that out to every raid across every expansion. There's 27 of them. Then assume a change like this needs mounds of testing. Multiple passes for anything where there a different things that can happen in the raid.

    No, we can't see the code, but we can see what things would need code to address them, and scope can be determined from that. It's not so much that we are saying, "using C++ to solve this problem takes one week," as we are saying, "addressing this many things, even if they each took an hour, would take a long time." So if it takes more than an hour, which it certainly would, then it would be really long.

    We rehash this every time somebody makes a suggestion, as a way to push back on it. Often we see proposed solutions put forward in the form of the simplest solution to give it a better chance of happening. Data is easier to change than code, in general, but both can be problematic depending on what the code is doing with the data. If data has an expected range and you change it to something in that range, mostly no problem. If you are getting outside of that into new mechanics or untested territory, then you are back to a complexity similar to changing code.

    Some of us here are developers, and sometimes the devs give us nuggets of information that reveal things about how the system works. With that we try to best-guess what is easy or hard. We already know raid tuning can be hard, and even with betas, problems still make it live. This would be like that, on a smaller scale, without a few anxious guilds ready to test it.
  17. Calzonae Journeyman

    Well the devs can speak among themselves on what can, cannot, or won't be done. I'm not one myself, cannot see the code, and am not posing as anything other than a gamer.

    I see that there is a wealth of content locked behind mechanics that benefit the server population but only for a narrow window of opportunity. Practically speaking, it is far easier to explore said content in era than it is to go back when it should be trivial and I see this as a problem

    Achievement hunters are happy about conspicuous achievements missing from their check lists? It is certainly easier to remove those achievements for end point raids than to fix it so the content can be done later in the game solo.... I mean no achievement for TIME raid? give me a break! Even if I were not an achievement hunter that would bother me.
  18. Niskin Clockwork Arguer

    IMO it's designed to be accessible to Raiders, rather than Groupers, anywhere near when it is current in era.
  19. Calzonae Journeyman

    IMO this design evolved over time to meet the needs and expectations of the playerbase within the ability of the devs.