Interesting read about court ruling against in-game gambling

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Risiko, Apr 20, 2018.

  1. Risiko Augur

    Here's a link to the article.

    The Ninth Circuit of U.S. Court of of Appeals concluded that the game Big Fish Games' Big Fish Casino included illegal gambling. Now the interesting thing here is what they based their ruling on, and this could be applied to other games such as MMORPGs.

    They based their ruling based on the fact that users had to use chips to be able to play the game, and if they were out of chips, they would not be able to play the game anymore. The fact that the users could either buy chips with real world money OR win chips in game meant that the chips had intrinsic value. That is what made it gambling in the eyes of the court.

    In the case of that game, the currency was Chips. The chips were purchasable via real world money or by winning them in game.

    In Everquest, the same scenario is available in the form of Krono. You can either pay for your account with Krono (or real world money) to continue playing, or you do not get to play anymore.

    Here's the stretch, and it's a big one.

    If you agree that Krono can be purchased in game for in-game currency (aka Platinum), and you agree that the end user gets platinum in game as something they win by fighting monsters, then you COULD say that platinum has intrinsic value, and hence Everquest involves illegal gambling.

    The only way that the illegal gambling could be removed from Everquest would be to remove Krono from the game, make Krono not consumable for game time, or make Krono no-trade.

    Again, I get that it is an extreme stretch to say that Krono in Everquest is a form of gambling, but considering an actual U.S. court ruled on something very similar makes it a valid topic of discussion.
  2. Candystore Augur

    Today's news.

    The Netherlands determined that many gaming companies are violating laws. Items that are being resold outside of the game (like Krono) is considered gambling, for which you need a gambling license (which these gaming companies do not have).

    The Dutch government said they will either fine those gaming companies or block access to the market.

    [IMG]
  3. Kahna Augur

    Except that you don’t use krono to actually gamble, unlike the chips in a gambling game. And you can play the game without ever buying krono. Also, lootboxes aren’t krono. With a loot box you get a random item, who’s value varies based on rarity. With krono you know exactly what you are buying.

    Some serious stretching there.
    Malicre and Adrienna like this.
  4. Candystore Augur

    Companies using RMT that can be resold outside of the game have until June 20, 2018 to change their game, or it they will be fined or shut down in The Netherlands.

    Other EU member states are expected to follow with similar regulations.

    "What if the companies in question do not comply? The gaming authority said from 20th June 2018, it may "instigate enforcement action against providers of games of chance with loot boxes that do not adhere to this norm". This action includes fines or a ban."
  5. Candystore Augur

  6. Niskin Clockwork Arguer

    The ability to sell a Krono for real $ is not facilitated or sanctioned by DBG. This doesn't even come close to fitting the description of what the ruling covers.
    Adrienna, Krrill and Malicre like this.
  7. Candystore Augur

    European authorities are going over game one by one. They will determine if they violate laws on the basis of:
    -addiction
    -RMT sold outside of the game
    -vulnerable to children or not
    -does the game have warning labels about addiction or not
    -etc

    They have looked over the biggest 10 companies now with the biggest franchises and working their way down. They have until June 20, 2018, to change their game or will get fined.

    They found 4 out of those 10 are in violation of national laws regarding addiction and gambling.

    "The Dutch gaming authority said it had looked into loot boxes in 10 games, and found four contravened its Betting and Gaming Act. It said the content of these loot boxes was determined by chance and, crucially, the prizes could be traded outside of the game. Therefore, the prizes have a market value.
    "Offering this type of game of chance to Dutch players without a licence is prohibited," the Dutch gaming authority concluded."
  8. Stinkee_Fingers New Member

    Make everything no drop. Then add a NPC where players can go and purchase a Krono (now no drop) with platinum (now no drop (sorry Druids and Wizards) with the exception of shared bank transfers) to extend their game time.
  9. Kahna Augur

    Not sure how concerning the law of one relatively small European country is going to be. DBG will probably make more money by just avoiding the Netherlands and not changing the game. I feel most game companies would just do the same.
  10. Risiko Augur

    The original post was about a ruling of the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in America. The first person to reply mentioned the Netherlands.

    Either way, I tend to believe that the ability to make plat in Everquest would be ruled as a game of skill rather than chance. Therefore, even though you can exchange platinum for krono and use krono to pay for game time (aka lending intrinsic value to both platinum and krono), it would most likely not be seen as gambling in a US-based court.

    The US makes a big distinction between chance-based games and skill-based games. Chance-based games is considered gambling.

    The only gray area there is the fact that what you get after you beat any given monster in the game is based on chance (our good friend RND). In the eyes of our congress men and women, that could be conceived as a game of chance. I mean heck... we had a congressman that actually thought that the island of Guam might tip over if we station too many military people on it. No. Seriously. It's on YouTube. He said it. I mean.. wow... just wow. So, yeah they can interpret things anyway they like.
    Khale likes this.
  11. Snorl Lorekeeper

    Go to the DBG shop some time. Those ring of scale loot boxes that were in there, those are gambling. Krono is not gambling.
    Malicre likes this.
  12. Quill Augur


    Early game.. pretty much. You sat down at a camp and there was X chance a name would spawn, and Y chance it would drop Your Precious. Keep at the mob slot machine until it coughed up what you wanted, and that gave it intrinsic value which could be turned into cash outside the game.

    Either way, they're honestly just being silly and anything can be read as 'gambling' if they want it to.
  13. Krrill Journeyman

    By your logic, then there has been sanctioned illegal gambling targeting minors for nearly 100 years. Ever hear of baseball cards.

    But in all your logic, where is the element of risk?
  14. Risiko Augur

    You don't need a baseball card to continue playing or watching baseball. You have to pay for a subscription to continue playing Everquest, and one of the options to pay for that subscription is a Krono.

    It's not me that is making up these rules. It's the government, and by the ruling of the 9th circuit court of appeals on the case in question, the court based their conclusion on the following...

    • The ability to access/play the game was based on having some form of payment
    • That payment was in the form of in-game coins
    • Those in-game coins were obtainable by paying real world money to the company OR by playing games of chance in the game to obtain them
    You see, it's the fact that you can pay for a service using a virtual currency that you obtained via a game of chance that makes it gambling. It's illegal gambling because it is not authorized by the government to be in operation.
    This could relate to Everquest because to be able to play the game (on a TLP server)...
    1. you have to have a subscription to play
    2. You can pay for that subscription via the consumption of an in-game currency (aka Krono)
    3. Krono is obtainable in-game by purchasing them with platinum that is earned in-game by playing a game of chance (aka the loot drops of mobs which is chance-based)
    The main difference between the Everquest situation and the one that the 9th circuit court of appeals ruled on is that in the case of Everquest, the platinum is not directly exchangable for game time. You have to convert the platinum in to krono before you can pay for your subscription to play the game with it. That exchange is via in-game economy based on user to user trading.
    In other words, it could be bent to fit the same criteria, but it is unlikely.
  15. svann Augur

    Can you tell me how I can directly "win" krono in game?
    There is the crux of what made it gambling.
  16. Candystore Augur

    Gamers always seem to think, for whatever reason, that these federal agencies just think in black and white.

    Gamers like to say: "This is gambling because X, and this is not gambling because Y".


    That is not what happens at all. They take into account many many things to come to their conclusions:

    -the age rating the game has given itself
    -how many ppl play the game, how many are kids, etc
    -the environment of the game, how many addictive elements there
    -the environment regarding the RMT, does the game use flashing lights, specific sounds, etc
    -has the developer taken measures to combat addiction
    -has the developer put warning labels concerning addiction on the package
    -has the developer reached out to people who are addicted
    etc

    Even the rate at which you can buy an RMT item / Loot box is part of the investigation. The smaller amount of time there is between purchases, the more addictive it is, etc.


    This is a small part of the research from the European investigation released yesterday. Notice that they use several categories, they do not think in black and white, they take tons of factors into consideration.

    [IMG]
  17. an_ogre_monk00 Elder


    Ogre not pay to kill Froggy. Ogre pay to for opportunity to be in place with Froggy which Ogre can kill.

    In old days, some player make Ogre pay to have opportunity to kill Froggy. Those player maybe criminal. It ok, Ogre ate dem anyway. Only thing taste better than Froggy is greedy foodperson.
  18. Candystore Augur

    Also, if you read these documents, you'll notice that these federal agencies tend to work together with psychologists / clinics that combat gambling and addiction.

    What these federal agencies are concerned about mostly is not just if the game is strictly gambling or not, but how the game impacts the people playing the game.

    What is the impact of these games, especially when there is real money involed, on people's lives. Does playing these games lead to other addictions, is it a stepping stone to playing in casinos, how are children impacted later in life, etc.
  19. Candystore Augur

  20. Hateseeker Augur

    Kronos aren't gambling, now, whether they promote bad RMT or not is another discussion. Let me just say that personally, I think that RMT is going to happen, has always happened, has not been stopped meaningfully and can't be stopped; it'd be more efficient to just have official brokerage houses that broker safe deals between players, whether that's to sell items, characters, or entire accounts, and take a percentage cut for the gaming company.

    RNG Lootboxes, however, are wrong and anti-consumer regardless whether they are technically gambling. I'm not sure if EQ has anything that's an RNG lootbox, but Planetside 2 implants most certainly fit that description.