Incoming Proc Rate Changes For Casters

Discussion in 'Casters' started by Cragzop, Feb 11, 2021.

  1. Cragzop Cranky Wizard

    In case you missed in, in Tuesday Test Patch notes:
    - Changed some of the modern Spell Casting Proc items so they won't trigger from other proc effects or twincast. This is a step, but not the entire solution, to reduce raid lag. Recursive proc casting is causing a huge amount of spells to be cast in a short time.

    In the Test Patch Notes thread, Kizant has posted some parses which show ~ 12% decrease in damage for wizards under burn conditions (it's not perfect example, but it's a good start). Wizards have the best proc add available (Fury of the Gods) so we're going to be most affected by changes in proc rate. But other caster classes are going to see drops as well. There are potential adds coming to offset the rate changes, but those aren't going in next Wednesday. So the lower proc rate is the new reality for us.

    Instead of looking at damage lost like Kizant, I thought I'd start to take a look at what the proc rate changes actually are. So I /testcopy-ed my raiding wizard and found an open guild hall with a dummy on test and went to work (also having Live wizard hitting the same dummy stats).

    Wizards had Jann Veil, Mount Blessing Lena, Improved Familiar, Ice Bound Ulthork Familiar, Shield of Restless Ice III and Benediction of Reverence. Full ToV nugget gear with all TBL fire procs, ToV ice procs, 2hb, and ToV range aug ... and TBM belt.

    I ran a basic 4 spell weave - Confluence, Claw of Sontalak III, Brand III, Flashbrand III. Since Claw was going to proc twincast, I started with Twincast on as well.

    Here's what I found after a 6+ hour run each on Live and Test.

    -Good old TBM belt is unaffected by these changes. So wizards can keep using.
    -Didn't touch Arcane Fusion proc rate either (wasn't expecting it to be difference, but confirmation it is the same)
    -Didn't touch Pyromancy proc rate (again, didn't expect ... just confirmation)

    -Banestrike rate was the same (and so was Jann proc for the melee time)

    -Two TBL casting fire, Two ToV casting ice, ToV range Gem of Striking, ToV Empowered Gem of Freezing had reduced fire rates

    The TBL casting fire and ToV casting ice have unique procs so here's what I saw:

    Aug Live Procs Test Procs
    18 Casting Fire 3378 1940
    19 Casting Fire 3341 2023
    18 Casting Ice 3430 2072
    19 Casting Ice 3360 2063

    On Live, 6391 dd hits, but only 6286 were fire (remember the TBLs will only proc off fire spells). On Test, 6564 dd hits, but only 6424 were fire.

    Doing math that hurts and basically you get an average proc rate of ~ 53.28 percent on Live and ~ 31.17 percent on Test with patch. So this patch has decreased fire rates by ~ 41.5 percent in the 18/19 caster augs.

    Now, the two special ToV type 7 proc augs actually have the same proc ... so there is no way to split them. My numbers actually have more of a drop than the 41.5 percent average for (48.5 percent) ... but we're still dealing with small number runs here.

    -Cragzop was stupid and switched to attack only (no casting) at some point early in the morning but didn't leave enough gap/hit something else to have a new mob show up in the parse ... so my 2hb proc numbers are screwy (the attack proc shows the same as the casting proc on the 2hb)

    There is also the fact that the ToV 2hb aug has the same proc as the weapon cast effect and melee effect ... future runs will try to tease this out.

    But taking into account more procs in both runs for the 2hb due to just attacking melee procs, it's still pretty close to 40 percent reduction from Live to Test.

    -Elemental Curio of Ondine Force reduced by over 50 percent proc rate

    This one I have no answer for ... since you cannot run CoV and ToV 2hb procs atm, I'm still using ToV and Ondine Force. But the proc rate was cut in half over the parses.

    -Other notes...the crit rates and twincast rates were clustered around 50 percent crit, 17 percent twincast rates during both runs so it looks like those rates for the procs went unchanged.

    Early Takeaways:

    With the caveat that both test runs were done under twincasting always, it looks like our 2hb, TBL and ToV casting procs are taking a 40 percent (plus) reduction in fire rate.

    Running some more tests tonight and I'll update with what I find.
    Kelset and Barton like this.
  2. Barton The Mischievous

    Dang, I mean I really really really want them to fix the lag ,but wizards don't seem like they can catch a break lately. Hope they make some adjustments for ya'll soon
    /salute all you raid wizards that still keep on keeping on
    Ezbro and Metanis like this.
  3. Beergoggles Elder

    It will be interesting to see how these proc changes effect gameplay both lag and dps wise. I'm not trying to be disparaging towards devs, but I'm of the opinion that relying so heavily on RNG from procs for dps is poor design. I prefer to be more in control of my dps. I get it that developing the same old thing gets boring and stagnant and wanting to try new things for the game is a good thing, but doing so at the expense of player's control usually doesn't work out well with the players. Aside from lag caused from all the procs, is it possible that luck is creating significant amounts of lag with all of the checks it makes on every cast, proc, autoattack, combat art, heal, etc. as well? It would be nice if they finished up the necro dot revamp soon so they can move on to wizard and give them a little TLC
    Ezbro and menown like this.
  4. Cragzop Cranky Wizard

    Back with some more info. Again, I am a wizard so focusing on wizard spells ... so other classes curious about non-standard spells might want to give it a whirl on Test ... or just wait until it hits Live cause it isn't going to get changed.

    So, I wanted to run some baseline numbers on a few spells to see if something more than what was said got changed in the patch. I also removed my ToV weapon proc aug so that I could get a sense of just the weapon primary proc rate.

    Remember the patch said it was removing proc changes from procs and twincast [spells]. So a single cast spell not under twincast should still proc roughly the same on Live and Test (minus inherent twincast ability of caster).

    And pretty much that's what I found with runs of Ethereal Brand casting:

    Live:
    Casts - 1547 (1.59% resist rate)
    Twincast rate (inherent) - 10.34%
    Hits - 1605
    Main Weapon Proc - 927
    18 Fire - 912
    19 Fire - 918
    18 Ice - 927
    19 Ice - 911
    Averaged Proc Rate - 57.26%

    Test:
    Casts - 1528 (3.73% resist rate)
    Twincast rate (inherent) - 9.94%
    Hits - 1550
    Main Weapon Proc - 842
    18 Fire - 867
    19 Fire - 846
    18 Ice - 851
    19 Ice - 847
    Averaged Proc Rate - 54.88%

    The slightly lower Test rate is due to the ~10% twincast rate ... those second spells are not getting proc chances. But it's pretty clear that the proc rate on all the TBL/ToV stuff is all pretty much the same and not changed under a basic spell/non-twincast condition.

    But when you look at a complex spell - Wildscorch Strike - you find that the numbers aren't adding up so nicely...

    Wildscorch Strike Rk. III
    Wizard (111)
    Slot 1:35% Chance to Cast Chaos Scorch III (v340)
    Slot 2:35% Chance to Cast Restless Ice Cascade III (v340)
    Slot 3:30% Chance to Cast Pure Wildscorch Caza IX (v340)
    Slot 4:Decrease Current Hit Points by 1

    Live:
    Casts - 2149 (1.71% resist rate ... but only the Restless Ice Cascade part)
    Twincast rate (inherent) - 10.33% [only for Wildscorch Strike]
    Wildscorch Strike Hits - 2266
    Pure Wildscorch Caza IX Hits - 655
    Chaos Scorch Hits - 791
    Restless Ice Cascade Hits - 806
    Main Weapon Proc - 1271
    18 Fire - 246
    19 Fire - 227
    18 Ice - 1172
    19 Ice - 1168
    Averaged Proc Rate - 53.12% (just looking at the Main Weapon and two Ice procs since the Fire procs only trigger on Fire casts)

    Test:
    Casts - 3803 (1.58% resist rate for Chaos Scorch, 5.85% for Restless Ice Cascade part)
    Twincast rate (inherent) - 10.28% [only for Wildscorch Strike]
    Wildscorch Strike Hits - 4009
    Pure Wildscorch Caza IX Hits - 1249
    Chaos Scorch Hits - 1371
    Restless Ice Cascade Hits - 1287
    Main Weapon Proc - 1128
    18 Fire - ZERO!!!
    19 Fire - ZERO!!!
    18 Ice - 1138
    19 Ice - 1102
    Averaged Proc Rate - 28.00% (just looking at the Main Weapon and two Ice procs since the Fire procs only trigger on Fire casts)

    So, not only does it look like they removed the proc chances off the 3 outcomes (since the fire augs never procced over 1000 hits) but they also cut just the proc rate of the spell in half. So a marginal spell only considered due to procs becomes worthless.

    I'm not sure they understand what they are doing on these spells. I'm going to test claw next (will buff block twincast for good numbers).

    But the moral for weird spells that proc stuff ... they are going to suck now.

    P.S. In thinking about this. It's possible that they knew the wildscorch line would already proc more in general ... so they nerfed the possible proc rate on Live in half. But with the changes, since half the "spell hits" no longer count, the proc rate then gets cut in half. In either case, wizards get screwed.
  5. Cragzop Cranky Wizard

    So, it turns out ... I was thinking about proc rates wrong (thanks to Sancus for showing me the light ... again ... behind the scenes).

    The actual proc rate for Wildscorch should be 25 percent based upon spell cast time for most modern procs. You could say wizards were double dipping ... getting procs on the second outcome and on twincasts for wildscorch.

    But the gravy train is over.
    OldCa61 likes this.
  6. Cragzop Cranky Wizard

    I have the claw runs from last night but haven't had a chance to look at them.
  7. Kelset Elder

    Thanks for all of the work on this Cragzop!
  8. KrakenReality Augur

    Hmm, so looks like they’ll be adding more ranks of increase proc chance in the future expansions.
  9. Szilent Augur

    what a weird thought
  10. Maym_Cazic Journeyman

    The obvious solution would be to increase individual proc damage to compensate. It's very odd to me they would penalize player dps for a mechanic and problem of their own creation.
    Verily Tjark likes this.
  11. KrakenReality Augur

    Not really every time something gets nerfed, I just expect it to be bought back via AA ranks.
  12. Verily Tjark Augur

    This is literally every nerf, ever. They create the "problem" then punish the players by being too heavy handed when they "fix" it.
    Tatanka likes this.
  13. Maym_Cazic Journeyman

    Sure. But usually those nerfs relate to in-game "power" being tuned. Not a mechanic that is literally fine in terms of in-game "power" but is breaking the infrastructure of the game.
    Skuz and MasterMagnus like this.
  14. Zynt Augur

    They do the same, and did almost exactly the same, in EQ2. It didn't fix anything and neither will this for the most part. The problem is their garbage servers and an unwillingness or inability to reinvest. It's circus and bread without the bread.
    yepmetoo likes this.
  15. Verily Tjark Augur

    I will say that I'm glad they are at least attempting to address the issues. I really hope they succeed in figuring out a solution and implementing it.
    Skuz and RPoo like this.
  16. Yueyenie Lorekeeper

    What's the TBM Belt your talking about? Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but are you talking about a belt from The Broken Mirror? I apologize but I'm a returning player.
  17. Cragzop Cranky Wizard


    Runed Belt of Boromas, raid TBM caster belt.

    Wizards have aa that modify the proc so it's still more dps than the 5000 damage per cast of the modern belts. Especially when burning. You would be better off switching to a new belt when burns are done ... but who the hell wants to switch a belt in the middle of a raid?
    Yinla and Skuz like this.
  18. Yueyenie Lorekeeper

    Oh thanks Cragzop. I also just restarted an old Raiding guild. Sadly we just had 2 of these rot the other day and I had no idea they still had some value. Dam, I might have even looted one an even tribute it away. Sadly being the only main Wizard in this guild, could someone tell me if this would still be beneficiary to any all of the other classes or intelligence casters as well?
  19. Cragzop Cranky Wizard

    Just wizards although if they are rotting there is no reason for other caster classes not to grab.

    You never know when something breaks.
  20. Yueyenie Lorekeeper

    I see some suggestion about the 2hd weapon and 2hd aug. Is it more beneficiary for a wizard to go with a 2hd setup? And are you guys actually melee the Raid mobs for procs? Let me share my current setup.

    Velium Threaded Athame
    --The Heart of Narikor
    Invested Tome of Obulus
    -- Living Golem Heart

    Set up for the ability to both proc more and recover mana. Are should I be going with a 2hd setup instead?