Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by ethyre, May 29, 2019.
Or 12/16 to 60, forget when Charm comes based on the 4 level gap in spells there.
Did you know that originally necros could mem the spell CHARM and some of us original necros have it in our spellbooks on the live servers? Verant modified the charm scrolls within a week or so from launch to not be memmable by necros.
The whole game was more dangerous. Charm was not disproportionately more so. The good and/or ambitious players relied on charm as much or even more than on tlps now. The difference, again, is just a combination of people not realizing and people not deliberately pursuing optimal strategies. Modern eq has very few ignorant or truly casual left, especially compared to 2003 and earlier.
Keep this in mind too: player power relative to mob power has actually gotten closer over time. In original eq, that charmed mobs was even more powerful than a similar level pc than today. GoD when it launched and before they tuned it? Those pets were just absolutely and completely nuts.
The issue here in this thread is probably not charm itself, its instead that general feeling that 50% of a server wants to raid top content versus maybe 5% when it was current, and 90% of the server expects optimal performance from a group, and mediocre or especially bad players cam easily be substituted for a box now. There is no real breathing space left for people who wanted the safe relaxing and generally no pressure feel of 1999. And for all its claims to authenticity, I have been led to believe that p99 doesn't have it either. That ship has sailed. Playing an enchanter and using only 50% of your toolbox today is no longer above average play if that part is good. Every other enc is using most if not all.
When I played a necro on fippy people told me I was really, really good. I would solo in fear and later chardok. I pulled well. After joining aos years later, I realize now I was only great at pulling and otherwise I was a mediocre necro at best. On combine before that I thought I was awesome at cleric, then they merged servers and a bunch of people joined roi and told me really basic tips - in retrospect, us roi clerics prior to iv merging were kinda bad in general. Last week I came to realize that tons of people don't even use target hotkeys, that one blew my mind.
The op probably was really good at ccing and possibly pulling. The problem is, at this point, so is most everyone else. People are improving and optimising. It's true in other games too. You either improve yourself too or you fall behind; the undiscovered ignorance and noob masses are never coming back. Wow classic will deal with this. Pantheon tlps your grandkids play 40 years from now will deal with this.
The nerf is simple: Fixed duration charms with an obscenely long recast that exceeds its duration.
So if a charm pet in that era does 4x the DPS of anyone else, you can have that but it lasts 6 minutes and can only be used every 30.
Problem solved - great for short term DPS plows but not reliable to maintain as mob respawn rate < it’s refresh.
Congrats on removing the last truly risky element of play from classic content.
No, the problem is the definition of "good". My definition of a good enchanter is one who pacifies, memblurs, safely shepherding the group's travels, then pacifies, pulls, memblurs, mezzes, slows and lines up mobs for fighting, debuffing and weakening mobs and draining mana etc. And turning chaos into order when things go bad. And then with free time, buffs players.
Your definition (and the current modern era definition) of a good enchanter is not a utility class, at all, but just pure DPS. And that is my issue - this game has none of the flavor that made it interesting. Everything is just pure DPS-race. No subtlety and finesse in anything - just button-mashing pure-DPS.
All the contrary arguments here even talk about "optimizing output" because, in that vein of thinking it's all about maximum kill rate.
Excellent post and very insightful and I agree to all of it.
Back in the old days I remember not being allowed to charm in groups , my job was to stun , mez and buff.
Charm DPS would’ve been great back then too. Don’t recall many necros charming either.
Forward to 2019 .. “which pet do you want?”
fantastic idea on a real solution
"My definition" of a "good enchanter" is one who plays his role to the fullest. Which, ironically, would also be "my definition" of a "good" anything. So basically, doing everything you mention in your first paragraph, in addition to charming a pet and adding DPS to their group.
Do you ask a bard to mez and charm to help CC on bad pulls, or just to play his group songs and pull mobs?
Do you ask druids/rangers to kite mobs during difficult encounters to ensure victory, or just to Heal & DPS?
I'm going to go with "No", you don't ask other classes to go above their "traditional" roles. You're stuck in your "traditional" roles, set out by people 15+ years ago, when the knowledge of how to optimize every class wasn't as prevalent as it is today. You want to go back to not charming because it was easier for you, no other reason. In a game that is as heavily grind oriented as EverQuest, "maximizing kill rate" should be on the top of your priority list. Adapt or play an easier class.
TLDR: You're not as good as you think you are, and you're lazy. Without charm there is 0 reason to bring an Enchanter to any EXP group. You can box one out of group for buffs.
Am i the only one missing this incredibly obvious fact from people that actually played eq in 1999?
Solb had double digit camps. There was a group at king, priest, bats, bugs, and on and on... today solb is basically 2 or 3 camps at best. Lguk is the same. Simply put, you didn't need stellar dps so essentially even a small risk wasn't worth it.
But in tlp today, we've got a ton more to kill so dps is king and if some group is near you its dps race. No time for mez or finesse.
Fun fact, the original Enchanter design had no animation and a much stronger charm spell.
I understand what you are saying though.
You agree with all of it, then you agree then you agree that people are improving and optimizing. It sounds like you’re unwilling to adapt to what is asked for in enchanters today, but that’s a you problem. You’re asking for a nerf seemingly out of an unwillingness or inability to adapt to what others expect of you in the hashed out modern EQ. I recommend another class or adapting or, at the very least, playing on a server that is further along so you can have your cake and eat it too.
.... You think Everquest is too fast paced? Maybe Solitaire is more your speed.
How would you know? People forget what playing an enchanter was like back then. AE mez was a death sentence. First, the resist rates were bad and you rarely got them all. Second, you couldn't overwrite your AE mez with your single mez. Finally, charming in groups was not only unusual, it was downright prohibited by most pickup groups. oldcracow nailed it when he said it's player power that makes charm breaks trivial now. That wasn't the case 20 years ago, and probably not 5 years ago, either.
Charm needs to not land on some named mobs in classic-PoP content because it just isn't worth all the drama at this point. [And yes, other shenanigan tactics will take over]
Charm is far safer and reliable than it ever was. Players are smarter, gear is plentiful, etc.
But.. the sum of many of these factors and other changes is that the older content is far, far DPS burstier than it ever was to anyone but the most elite handful of players on a given server. The shame of that is pretty much every game made since WoW is bursty... tactical combat was an EQ thing (unless you overpowered it or overgrouped it) --and places like Lower Guk become a 1-3 group camp in era.*
Magic resist checks were altered and it's likely not something that gets rolled back or era set. It is not unreasonable to want something done to charms that reinstates the appropriate level of risk/effectiveness in the pre-OoW game. How they do that... not sure.
*granted I think dungeons like LGuK just need the respawn greatly shortened and randomized. That would up the skill/challenge.
Wrong, we definitely had enchanters charming in Elemental Planes raids when PoP was LIVE. 5 years ago would have been... Phinny? Ragefire? Charming was DEFINITELY prevalent then.
Stop while you're ahead.
Charming was so weak in EQ prior to OoW launching originally that the buffed it so hard...
Oh wait that's not what happened at all
Ethyre has a valid point. Especially during the first bunch of expansions, if you don’t have a chanter in your group you’re at a massive disadvantage.
One class shouldn’t bring so much to the table that they negate the need to other classes.
With charm, chanters are head and shoulders the best DPS in the game.
They remove the requirement for a tank because the pet can do this
They have unparalleled crowd control abilities
They have the most sought after buff in the game (the clarity line) and the best haste
The simple way to tone the class down is to make charmed pets not do as much damage
At the end of SoV i was charming ok. Did I have all the toys and tricks I have today no.
I was real good at charming by PoP
Use to duo with my druid and enc in BoT earth in the back part and could kill everything.
I tired to charm in Kunark but usually got killed quick back then.
I could 4 group raid mobs in PoP second week it came out. (They fixed that on TLPs)
Back in the day there were few people with BiS in most spots. Foward to TLPs today
and most people have BiS or close to it.
So groups needed CC back in they day. Today not so much.
For the record CC back in the day was an art. Today its hit the F1 button and cycle though
So to say we didn't charm back in the day isn't the truth. There were just few enc that
did it and groups thought it was great if they got you. Today all the tips and tricks you can read about
and everyone expects an enc that charms. Better have a clickable invis and clickable 5pt dmg rings
At OOW or GOD forget which one it was addressed and pets do like 1/3 of the dmg they do
non charmed. This is where reverse charming came in. Think the people that have issues the most are TLP jumpers. They stop at pop and go back to classic.
Agree with OP, I miss the old way of playing a chanter. Charming in todays version of eq is overpowered and messing with the spirit of eq .. just like op monks did with fist damage on earlier tlps before the nerf .. just like mage pets did on earlier tlp before the nerf (see the trend here?).
It is not that charming was not a thing in old eq, but the game dynamics has changed so that the risk is too little for the power gained. Mobs/npcs that were previously not charmable, now is, which doesn't help on the situation either, that charm&mez breaks and resists are much rarer now, and that damage mitigation is different now so chanters can survive being punded at.
It used to be that many just didn't want to deal with a charming chanter in a group because of high risk of wipes, the need of a dedicated healer, preferably someone with ensnare, and the fact that everything suddenly evolve around the skill&luck of the chanter, making your role insignificant... obviously great for the sociopath and similar type of player who love that the world evolve around them, not so great for others, and not great for a role(class) based system.
Certainly it weren't the intention of the class design that it should be possible to have charmed pets that does the same job as 3 dps characters and a tank, and that at a very low risk too.
Yeah I recognize that things evolve but I still miss the old chanter way of playing, and the balance of roles that eq is based of.
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