If I could ask the Devs one question...

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Montag, Feb 27, 2018.

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  1. Issk Journeyman

    I'd be curious to know which expac took the most effort over the years. How many folks worked on that expac compared to how many work on today's expacs?
  2. Zamiam Augur

    If i could ask 1 question I would ask the Dev's why cant the expansion houses (abode, bixie(this is one i need), and ship) be available to purchase in the marketplace.. I would pay good dollars for that bixie house I missed out on that expansion

    and part 2 of the question why aren't more houses being offered when new expansions come out ? think we've had 3 expansions now and now house :(

    ok so maybe its a 3 part question ..

    part 3 why cant 1 toon own more than 3 plots (4 or 5 would be nice)
  3. Dewey Augur

    What 1 player spell, item, effect, or feature do you wish didn't exist; because it removes your ability to change something else....

    I am thinking of something like the necro 2.0 which I hear is still the popular primary for necro's.
  4. Corwyhn Lionheart Guild Leader, Lions of the Heart

    Glad to see you can have a courteous and mature discussion on things. Oh wait.... you didn't :) You're cranky it must be time for your bottle.
  5. kizant Augur

    What's there to discuss? Devs add something different to keep the game interesting. You complain that it's annoying and that people who box are too lazy to deal with it. Then you suggest just removing it entirely without giving a good reason. I really don't understand the motivation to remove all the elements that make EQ a 'game' worth playing. It's like you treat it as a job where you want everything made as easy as possible so you can obtain your levels and gear faster and nothing else. I really don't get it.
  6. Zhaunil_AB Augur

    There's the letter and there's the spirit of "the law".
    The good people follow the spirit while the "clever" ones follow the letter.

    You're making it sound as if your way were the only "true" way to enjoy a (this) game.
    And whatever happened to "your freedom stops where mine is impeded"?
    If the moral values differ too much, then you have dissent - that's human nature.
    And each side then cites "the law" to achieve what THEY want, even over the figuratively dead bodies of others.
    A common law is important (pax romana was the foundation of the roman empire) but the tolerance and non-abuse of "rights" is "the soul" of any community (it was when the tolerance towards other cultures and people diminished when strife was peaking).

    And no matter what you say, unless a dev posts - against their stated policy - what is acceptable and which is not (i know about those statements giving examples about key replication etc that are quoted in this context), your "certainty" is still just your interpretation of the silence and or inaction you're getting.
    Big is then the surprise and outcry if ever they should "dare" to enforce what they think is "right" - we've been there, even recently.
    And to specify my critique: according to MY interpretation of "key replication and unattended gameplay", ANY software or module that moves characters by itself and starts complex actions which cannot be automated by in-game means IS cheating. Even if you are "at the keyboard" and initiated the then-automated sequence with a keypress.

    Thats quite correct actually.
    At first many people - all really - are given a kind of "advance respect".
    But with quite many people, if you just scratch a bit beneath the surface, you can't help but have them drop down on your personal "respect ladder".
    Loosing respect has always been easier than earning it.

    You are right, it is.
    But i wonder why you bring it up, i suggested nothing to that end.
    Instead, i referred to details i find despicable and condemnable.
    It's not the tool but the hand/mind that wields it - tools are often more powerful than is good.
    In MY book, there is a fine line involved there, and certain modules you're advertising have definitely crossed that line.
    (let alone that the tool in question is open for scripting too, which enables an entirely deeper level of "cheating" - well, in my book.)
    And yes, i can not respect people that "cheat" in my eyes, plain and simple.
    Doesn't mean they're "bad people", just means that i won't socialize with them if i can at all help it.
    Because in MY book, these people fall into the same category as the proverbial chinese plat-farmer.

    Fixed that sentence for you, since that's just an opinion, not a fact.
    You definitely seem to be on a crusade yourself though - like... "once there is a critical mass, it's impossible to backpedal".
    In my country, we say "wehret den Anfaengen" to that.

    In all honesty, EQ is a game and not a matchmaking agency.
    But isn't your sample, while perhaps bigger than the average joe's, still just a small and non-representative one?
    A guild, like every other conglomeration of people, holds many different people and characters that have their own goals, moods and motivations.
    The trick to me has been to find those that harmonize with mine and go on from there.
    That is one aspect of the grouplet building you have, but to turn any one whole guild into a single grouplet is unrealistic - all you can do there is to join and try to change from withIN - from the outside, you won't ever have any success, as you will only strengthen that group's cohesion.
    Ever tried to see things through the eyes of others?
    I'm sure you'd have less "need" to resort to these programs and especially modules to find "fun" in the game if you could and did.
    And with that too, i am sure, your tolerance or outright support for what i criticize would diminish.

    I'm straight-forward and honest and blunt and politically incorrect - and sometimes (some say quite often) acting somewhat clumsily and often quite impatient too.
    (and, admittedly, writing too long posts :) )
    Some like that or can at least deal with it, others can't. Some of those others manage or can be made to "see through my eyes" and others can't ever. And among that rest, i am only interested in the answer to this question: "can we do something together for a common goal or are personal feelings getting in the way?".
    Naturally, i am more inclined to help people that i harmonize better with - but i've not been stopped to help even "the rest" when it was needed for the common goal. But yes, i of course minimize my "contact areas" with that crowd.
    Luckily, in my guild i have at LEAST been able to answer that with a "yes" for just about everyone (save some apps that were thankfully rejected), so i have no issues.
  7. Corwyhn Lionheart Guild Leader, Lions of the Heart

    Actually I never said anyone was too lazy. I also didn't say remove all elements. You seem to have a major reading comprehension problem or are just being logically fallacious (Erroneously attempting to make a reasonable argument into an absurd one, by taking the argument to the extremes)
  8. Corwyhn Lionheart Guild Leader, Lions of the Heart

    "This paranoia that we design things to SUPPORT third-party is that. Paranoia. And maybe also a conspiracy theory.
    On the contrary, we often attempt to design in such a way as to thwart third-party programs."
  9. Fohpo Augur

    I can't be the only one wondering, do you have any idea what a paragraph is?
  10. AlmarsGuides Augur

    Just one of the ways. As long as a person's play experience doesn't actively negatively affect another I believe everyone should be allowed to do whatever they want. That means the argument "bots affect the economy" is invalid to me because regular people do the same thing bots do to the economy.

    I don't like when people actively go out of their way to ruin another's play experience and there's a minority of people that do that to the same people (boxers of a specific type) that you claim to dislike.

    I also realize there's a minority of boxers that go out of their way to purposefully ruin another person's play experience. I equally disagree with this approach to playing the game and I am openly scornful of players that do this too.



    My evidence is the fact that I haven't been suspended or banned despite openly admitting to the devs what I do and telling them I planned to write guides for it. I don't need permission to know if something is ok or not. There's many things we do as humans on a daily basis that we don't have active "permission" from an authority to do. There's many things in life that we're expected to make our own deduction with; to give you an example, Blizzard will NOT ok you to use addons in their game, for same reasons as Daybreak. The player is expected to make the deduction that addons are actually allowed by all of the evidence at hand.

    Your second argument, I gave great thought to as well. Because in some contexts you can consider it a "method" that allows unattended play. But then I also considered the fact that Auto hotkey can do literally the same thing. So can a Logitech G510 keyboard. So can mouse machine. You can set all of these things up to obtain the same level of automation that you can get with the program you specifically dislike. At the same time though, I don't see anyone ever posting "we shouldnt allow Auto Hotkey".

    We can't "define" cheating ourselves because everyone will say cheating is something different. I've met a TLP player that says the fact that people on live get the extended target and they don't is cheating. We can only define cheating by what Daybreak says it is and the evidence of what Daybreak suggests is allowed or not.

    I don't need someone to "tell" me that the program I am using is allowed since I have asked the company, REPEATEDLY whether or not it was/if I was pushing things too far and they have NOT ONCE told me to stop. I've straight up told Holly that I would take down my guides if they caused any problem at all no matter how unreasonable of a problem it might be. They can ask me to take them down because "we don't like almarsguides and we dont want you to succeed" and I would. It's their company, their game, their rules. I'll abide by them. My goal is to help others, while abiding by their rules, have fun.


    I've been a part of many guilds in many games and I have generally found a great similtarity across their member base in personalities and their behaviour. I don't want to join a group of people and play with them if they are too opinionated and bias and too closeminded to be challenged on what they think. I also don't like being friends with people who aren't genuine individuals. If you act one way around me then go to other friends and act totally different, hold different opinions etc etc - you're going to lose my respect.

    Guilds are such large groups of people that it's difficult to not find people like this. Also, considering our platform (an older MMORPG) we attract the worst archetypal personality type (to steal a line for Jordan Peterson), the adult infant. I've met more people than I can count who are basically infantile adults either leading or in guilds. Firiona Vie has a whoooooooole bunch, at least half of the high end guilds consist of individuals like this.

    Instead of trying to join and change these people, I just save everyone the headache and avoid them. I wouldn't get along with them and they won't get along with me anyway so.


    I am rather good at putting myself in other's shoes as you suggested I should, it's how I write most of my guides. I put myself in the shoes of an every day user and figure out where they could go wrong so I know where to give help.

    I sympathize with why you dislike cheaters but it seems like you don't sympathize with my feelings at all. We both don't want people to abuse third party software or ruin our Everquest experience but you incorrectly assume that every person who uses the software is a cheater and/or that it's the only software you can use to gain an advantage. That's completely wrong and this incorrect assumption has led a small group of people that think like you do and have that ideology you do as well to harass ANY boxer.

    You are honestly concluding that EVERYONE who uses X program is a criminal. And by your own words in another post you said you want them banned, which would be the same as saying throw them in jail. (if we move this to the real world as an example)

    So, to spin your ideology to the real world what you're saying is you want every person in this "group" to be locked up just because they're in that group whether or not they are innocent. I vehemently disagree with this and yes, I will actively crusade against this because I can't for the life of me understand how people who think this way can't see how morally reprehensible it is.

    Also if you're one of those people that don't like mixing real world and EQ; at the very least you're advocating (by banning everyone who uses program XYZ) that we cause people moderate to severe mental anguish. That's what asking to ban a large group of people, some of them innocent, would do. I believe we need to judge "cheating" by a case by case basis


    I do not agree at all in any way possible about judging an entire group of people on the actions of a few.
  11. AlmarsGuides Augur

    A P.S since I believe someone will think they "got me" by pointing out what they believe is hypocrisy with me not wanting to join a guild and also judging them on the actions of a few... despite me advocating against it.

    There's one massive difference to this; I don't wish harm on that group of people nor do I want them "gone" from my game. I also recognize not everyone in a guild is a turd; my irl BFF is in <Valhallah> on FV despite me having nothing but negative things to say about a majority of their members and leadership (another major difference). They're welcome to enjoy the game in the ways that they see fit and I won't complain nor will I try to be a detriment to the way they enjoy the game. I still write guides and go out of my way to help people that are in guilds despite my personal beliefs about them.


    What I care about is people actively wishing harm (or inflicting harm) on an entire group of people for the actions of a few. If you don't like an entire group of people because of the actions of the few, that's life and I understand that. I can't fix that and I'm not even going to begin trying. But the difference is whether or not you act on that hatred and desire to inflict emotional or physical harm because of that hatred. That's when we have a problem.
  12. Dahaman Augur


    Isn't the name of that third party software banned on the forums? That's a red flag to me at least. For posterity, can anyone explain part of the history behind that?

    Legal or not, the software hasn't changed my playing style or playing experience one way or the other. I have never used third party software on EQ, nor have I felt victimized by someone that has used or even abused it.
    Yinla likes this.
  13. AlaskaJay Lorekeeper

    By allowing open discussion of 'X' program on an official game forum it is tantamount to endorsement of said program which the developer does not want. There is a hug gap between not wanting to "endorse" something and banning everyone who tried to use it. No game Dev wants to be seen endorsing something they do not themselves have control over.
  14. AlmarsGuides Augur


    They also don't allow you to say Is boxxxer on these forums which we all can agree on, unanimously, is allowed.

    As the above poster said though, Daybreak can not/will not endorse it because they can't control it. It's for that very reason I have opted to be so careful with writing the guides I wrote, it's the same reason i sent them to Holly and let her know what my intentions were. If Daybreak wanted to go so far as to silence ALL talk about these programs they could and they could very politely ask me to shut up and stop what I am doing.

    They haven't and that's pretty strong evidence to me that I am not breaking their rules.
  15. Zhaunil_AB Augur

    I am glad we can at least agree on that much.

    The point aside, that there is in my eyes no "economy" deserving the term in EQ, i have to disagree.
    How is an argument to an "unfair advantage" invalid when you get automation, allowing you to do things (much) easier than you would through "legit" means?
    In my book, there is a reason why FM is so popular with that kind of users (note that i do not call them players!).

    mhm.
    I do cross the street too where i want when i can, even though there's perhaps a red light or a crosswalk not too far.
    I consider it "ok" for me too and i've never gotten ticketed for it. That doesn't mean it IS ok though. If i get a ticked on the millionth time i'm doing it, i can't complain and say "i always did that and noone complained or said anything ever".

    There's not "some contexts" when a script auomates movement and disc usages and such. Only the fact.

    Nope.
    You can not program a mouse to get a mob's location and facing and moving a char to it's back automated.
    There's legit methods to achieve almost the same with autofollow, yes. But the difference is there and it shows.

    That's right, but i can apply my common sense to draw a line.
    Doesn't mean i am 100% on the spot either since as you say, we lack clear definitions (by purpose i'd say, especially when we're talking a country whose law system is build on precedential cases where it might become important to avoid that precedent in the first place).

    The important thing is the EFFECT people use their tools with, not the tool itself.
    But since i can not control people's intent or malintent (and i hav epersonally observed far too much abuse), i feel it's necessary to control the tool if the possibility for abuse is there and even supported/advertised. Same goes for the advertisers then.
    And when e look back in time, there HAVE been cases wher epeople were banned for using such tools, or even that specific tool.
    That's a clear indication to ME that, even under the "revised" ToS/playnice rules, the deployment and use of such routines is NOT ok, despite a distinct lack of action (and shortage in man-power/GM-knowledge).

    I am not going out of my way to interfere with botters, but if they get in MY way, then i use the means i have to get rid of them (i.e. report/petition). And as i haven't seen some names since (but of course new ones, new accounts are far too easy to set up and all), i too feel vindicated / my point of view supported just as you do by now having seen any action. I guess that's a case-by-case decision.
    Still, i am against the use of said programs because of their built-in (and promoted) potential for abuse as much as you are for them for it's upsides.
    As i said, it always comes down to how a tool's used.

    Self-fulfilling prophecy has something to do with that, i am sure.
    If i always expect the worst, i see only the worst - especially if i do not care to look beyond that or to take a second, closer look.
    It's stereotypical, but applies i think:
    Compared to americans we germans are (yes, generalizing and yes, a sterotype - but used with an open eye!) tend to be much more reserved and tight and keep far more to ourselves and are much less forthcoming. But when someone calls you a "friend" here, he doesn't mean a FB friend type of thing either or when you receive an invitation "come on over for a visit when you are in the area" noone's surprised when you actually do.



    Actually no, but just with racial profiling which isn't ok perhaps but reality (and there's a reason for it usually too even if that shouldn't count as they're mostly based subjective impressions), warning lights must go off and the alert be raised a level or two.
    The opportunity makes the thief, as we say. And the tool offers far too much opportunity, even at base install/download.

    Avoid these people i can't when they are in static zones. And that's my problem with that.

    meh... That's bad style of you, since i didn't.
    A crowbar is a crowbar, not more not less.
    But a crowbar used against a door frame is still housebreaking.
    And yes, when we look at certain modules that program comes with, then the use (and, in your case, promotion) of THOSE does indeed make the "criminal"/offender, as that's the equivalent to putting that crowbar to use against that door.

    I agree. But its still "in for a penny, in for a pound". And the "evidence" of promoting the problematic modules is there (as is the use by people if one cares to look close enough), so i think my judgement is at least... justified.
  16. AlmarsGuides Augur

    You can most certainly get other programs to do what you stated. You can get other programs to go far beyond what the one you hate is capable of right now.



    The person who creates the tool you despise has taken actions to prevent misuse.

    I am not going out of my way to interfere with botters, but if they get in MY way, then i use the means i have to get rid of them (i.e. report/petition). And as i haven't seen some names since (but of course new ones, new accounts are far too easy to set up and all), i too feel vindicated / my point of view supported just as you do by now having seen any action. I guess that's a case-by-case decision.
    Still, i am against the use of said programs because of their built-in (and promoted) potential for abuse as much as you are for them for it's upsides.
    As i said, it always comes down to how a tool's used.



    I do not promote any part of this "tool" that is considered "cheating". This seems to be the sole point we disagree on, what constitutes cheating. You think using the tool to help you box is cheating when it isn't and Daybreak has been pretty clear about that.

    It can be used to cheat, like you said you've gotten people suspended for using it before. I have also had a GM show up at my camp before and ask me if I was attended, I said yes and was cordial with him and he left. My BFF has admitted to Woebot that he used the program and I know that the person who created the program as well has admitted to a GM that he uses it. Using it appropriately and within the rules of the game is allowed as has been stated time and time again.

    If you feel that the program gives you an advantage over others then you can only blame yourself for not using it, much like how I can only blame myself for not liking Voice Chat and not liking GINA Audio Triggers. I don't use them at my own detriment but that doesn't make me mad at the people who use the program to their benefit. Obviously they use it because they enjoy it. Those programs give them an advantage over me.

    I whole heartedly disagree with your argument that we should "get rid of the program entirely because it's easy to abuse" because alcohol is too, as is marijuana and other drugs. Despite the clear and obvious downsides of these drugs they also have obvious upsides when used responsibly. Just because it's easy to abuse these substances doesn't mean that we should take them away entirely from everyone. If you start taking away things that are easy to abuse from people, how long before you start down a completely absurd path like trying to take away everyone's car because the rate of vehicular manslaughter is too high and it's abundantly clear that people abuse driving?
  17. Fohpo Augur

    Cherry pick much? He never said it fully automates gameplay in the same exact fashion, but rather you can achieve similar (re: same) results using certain keyboards/mice. If you turn a mechanical keyboard on and macro it appropriately, then place your box group in certain spots - you can effectively achieve the same result (automated killing).

    Yup, every zone, on every server, in the entire game is populated with ISB groups.
  18. Dahaman Augur

    Are all third party software names censored?
  19. Fohpo Augur

    Are they all paid? I'd be interested in seeing how the monetary side of programs affect their willingness to allow discussion on DBG forums.
  20. AlaskaJay Lorekeeper


    Bingo
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