Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Elkar Headhunter, Sep 2, 2017.
Complaining about them adding content that you don't want to partake in is asinine.
This is not a commitment to adding an item reward, I'm simply participating in the conversation. We are not against adding a reward, but we are neither committing to adding rewards nor prioritizing adding rewards as a task.
If we were to do an augment, *I* would make the reward "serial" it would gain steps from Original, then to Kunark, Then Velious... ETC... so if you "only" beat House of Thule, you don't even have the item. You have to beat Original EQ to get the item, then it doesn't step until you beat Velious, etc.
While we *could* use a charm script, I think it would be better to make it an evolving item that evolves as you beat the appropriate content. This way the stats can truly be customized as the tiers increase here a charm script is simply a percentage.
The "flaw" in the item is that each time it evolves it will pop out of its item. A bit inconvenient, but not horrible either.
This is my thoughts.
I'm against bags, because I don't want to give 24 bags, even if some get replaced. And for people "going back" the "appropriate" bags for Original EQ are not a good reward.
(Note all "you" statements below are the generic global you, not Zaviere.)
And we also acknowledge this. Some people don't care about achievements. Some only care *if* we add a reward. Some people STILL don't care even if there is a reward.
I *personally* think it's weird when people say we "Forced" them to do something. You want it or not. No-one is "forcing" you to do the content. Sure, it may be the "best" and to get the best you have to do what we decide you need to do to EARN the best. We certainly are not "forcing" anyone. It's you that decides if the effort for the reward is worth it.
As for after the fact.... You can still do the achievements... If we add a reward we won't then be closing the achievement to completion. The people that already did it get it first. Yay! Good for them. How is that fact that they already did it punishing you? How is that fact that now there is a good reward for doing it punishment?
People may decide that the reward is not worth the effort, and it *IS* effort. That's fine! It's your choice to put a level of importance on the reward, not ours! Our influence ends on making a reward (or not!)
BiC is miles ahead of anything on Phinny and I sure as hell am not gonna do that.
+1 this sounds fun
When you attach amongst the very best rewards in the game to such things, you're "forcing" people that care about maximizing their characters to do such things. As a player base, we're very fickle about having the best of everything.
For what it's worth, my opinion is, if you want to do old content, there are plenty of TLP servers to choose from. You can then get level appropriate rewards for doing that content in era. Having people do 15 year-old content for modern rewards seems a bit asinine to me. It seems, however, that the dev team is migrating to that method of content creation. I don't know if it's because the dev team believes that's what the players desire, it's what they enjoy doing, if it's because it's efficient to do content refreshes on standard servers while cleaning stuff up on TLP, or if it's just purely a low effort/low cost means of giving people content by recycling. All I know is myself and many people I know don't find it in the least bit entertaining. Time spent doing doing trivial things might be a time commitment, but it's not engaging or challenging. Personally that's not the type of game that I have interest in playing or paying for. I could very well be in a bubble and out of touch with what the majority enjoy doing.
This would work if the "reward" is based on only hunter achievements (because we can camp PHs to spawn the mobs).
If the requirements includes the raid level achievements, it could get really ugly when 100+ people on a server all need Kelorek'Dar in Cobalt Scar and other similar in regular zone dragons. With multiple long duration respawns (3+ days), it could easily take a year to clear out the back log and that assumes no one kills it repeatedly. A block like that early in the process would be nasty and cause a lot to stop working on it.
PS: I use Kelorek'Dar as an example only because I've only been able to catch him up a handful of times over the years to get his orb ... and I'm a druid who can port to the zone and track for him. Having him be a block on the hunter achievement "rewards" would be ugly for a lot of classes So please keep it to hunter/regular PH based mobs if its going to be "serial" based "reward".
Could it be setup like the Eyes of Life and Decay? It wouldn't pop out on its own, but you would have to remove it to convert.
You know that creating a raid give credit to everyone in it right? Hell, you can even stay in your guild hall and get it all done just with a handful of brave souls...
While your idea looks great on paper, it doesn't work in practice.
The primary problem with old school raid targets is they obviously can be taken down by any single player (even a not so brave one). The real problem becomes finding them up to kill. It's not like the average Joe running across an old raid mob is going to take the time to ask around who needs the kill. He drops one nuke on its head and its dead.
Don't believe me, go to the Plane of Power zones on a regular server and see how many of the raid targets you can find up? You'll find most of them are not up. Currently, there are still a fair number of people who would like to kill those targets for the Aid Grimel quests so they can get the tradeskill aug. I haven't seen a single attempt to form a raid before the PoP progression raid mobs are killed. Assuming that things would be different when another "reward" is placed on the table is just silly.
This is exactly right. I recently tried for a few weeks to work on the tradeskill aug. Due to my very limited playtime, maybe an hour a day, I wasn't able to do but about 20% of the PoP stuff (even then it was the more generous parts). If you can't sit at your computer all day, that stuff just isn't realistic.
<This not so brave soul will wait and kill it as it spawn. Never had any issues with PoP either doing it for 5 toons one by one by saying each time after the next that it was my last. I always advertised that the Planar Projection was up on /general after each kill. Its best to stay on guard after a server up unless you have a aprox time from last it was killed. If you dont want to lock your main just create a FTP account, go heroic or spend a few hrs to lvl up a toon high enough to handle up to PoP+.
The only bad thing about hunter thing is that there so huge difference between zones and such.
In some zones, you almost get the hunter mobs b4 you start, while in others they are way to rare.
Example for zones: Lavastorm, Field of bones, Rathe Mountains, Xorbb, Necropolis and such. They really need to be changed. Example Vaniki repop it is 112 hours or something like it and even then not sure repop will be Vaniki? Chance for pop on those nameds should be increased, on those that are extreme rare.
I think the person WHO says something about punished might be thinking, as soon as there is a reward for those achievements, people will be flocking to do those, making it a lot harder, then it is now. Imo, it is no punishement, people choose to do those achievements when there were no rewards, and it was your own choice not to do those at the beginning.
They might also think that being forced into doing it, due to "WHAT if" there come a reward, it is still their own choice wheter to do or not to do.
It's always easy to blame others but your success are entirely your own responsibility!
Honestly, the commitement some poeple show here is great. I am all for rewarding this in some way, because it's outstanding. But if the next big quest reward again requires mindless/afk killing grey cons in age old zones, that would be lame.
For toons that completed these hunters, give them a banner with their name on it. Or a hat. No need to reinvent the wheel
(This isn't directed at you, Good. You've just opened up a rebuttal to this reward suggestion).
That right there is why some people (myself included) have an issue with a reward. I know plenty of folks who are getting the Hunters achievement simply because they happen to be in a raid with someone who is doing it. They're putting zero time in towards killing a named. Zero effort. The only thing they're doing is keeping their computer running while someone else does the work ("work", more on that later).
I don't know why you would be able to get the check mark for completing a named when you're out of zone. I can understand getting it in a raid format - plenty of folks make raids to go farm gear, and every one of them should get a check mark if they're in the zone helping with the mob.
In terms of the "work" involved - a good portion of it is being scripted. Load up a FTP account, make something that can kill quickly (any heroic toon for a level 40 zone, basically), and run a script to kill everything in a zone. Create a raid and invite your main, your friends, their friends, etc. If the script bot gets banned, oh well - create another one and start again. Plausible deniability for the rest of the raid - "I was just AFK in the guild hall. It's not my bot!" I know at least two in this thread who have seen a bot running around an old zone killing whatever they can. I would wager it was for a hunter raid. [Devs, please edit / remove this paragraph as you see fit, mostly it's for you to be aware of the situation].
"Well, you missed the boat" - no, I've had plenty of opportunities to join raids like this and leave my system running while I'm away. It's not an achievement for me to win like that.
"It's trivial. These are level 40 mobs." - Then why put a reward in at all? It's trivial now for most (not for those who want the achievement points), but it will soon become non-trivial for those who want to max their toons.
"Just join a raid" - Defeats the purpose of achievements.
Stuff like the Artisan's Prize, while trivial for some, still require you to do the combines. You need to do the tasks. You need to farm (or buy) the materials. You need to do the PoP progression (kills, maybe not, but hails for sure). It is an accomplishment to complete these achievements.
I like the idea of this giving out rewards. But with the way this has been exploited, it's too late. There are folks who have done it honestly, and some who have done it dishonestly. It's not fair to the honest ones. I recall seeing a post about that recently for another achievement by someone in this thread. The raid "feature" should have been made to include only those in a zone, and then this should have been introduced with a reward.
It seems to me that the people arguing against there being a reward for the 'new' Hunter's Achievement are the one's who haven't done it because they didn't want to do it. Many of you say the points are reward enough. Not really. Now, if you make 'achievement points' relevant somehow than yeah maybe they are.
As Orbital said, form a raid and go after the named. A bunch of us did this same exact thing and we didn't have any issues with it other than the rare spawns such as North Ro etc.
Now some argue that killing PoP type of namers and such is bad mojo. The only argument I have really ever seen about this are either folks working on their achievements and such to prep for the Artisan Prize and even the bigger set of whiners are the people who sell their time to other people for services-rendered in completing PoP and the Artisan Prize. I know I am generalizing but whatever.
Nobody is forcing anyone to do these achievements. And not everybody gets a participation trophy. If they make a reward than get off your duff and get it done if you want to. Yes, they may be grey cons and such but the time spent in getting it done is fairly expansive when it comes down to it.
I know I will get lambasted for my comments here but meh!
Just give me credit from when I killed the names when they were current content, I still have many items (well if my house ever gets fixed) to prove I have killed them.
In a game of risk vs reward, where that line gets muddied often, the ability to AFK in the guild hall in a raid and obtain an desirable high end augment from others who kill level 5-70 named at level 105 would set a new low that I thought could not be obtained in Everquest.
Now, one would assume that *if* an augment were to be decided upon by the developers for completing every expansion hunter achievement that said augment would be desirable by a level 105 player. And considering something like the Artisan Prize, who knows what kind of stats it would have. And any amount of desirable stats that you place on an augment like this will generally *force* everyone who wants it into doing it, regardless of trivialness or risk involved. Otherwise if you come out and say "complete 23 expansions worth of hunter, get a 300 h/m/e augment with 50 AC and 10 to heroics", I seriously doubt people would jump on that. But throw out a "complete 23 expansions worth of hunter, get a 2300 h/m/e augment with 230 AC and 230 to heroics", now everyone is going to want to do so.
But then the risk vs reward becomes awful. Because then I can sit in the guild hall and essentially, over time, obtain a 2300 h/m/e 230 heroics augment. That is one of the biggest complaints about this thought process over rewarding with an augment. Another, of course, is that from a risk vs reward perspective... there is literally zero risk involved for a level 105 (the majority of your player base) to go into any level 80 and lower zone and defeat named. So someone like myself, who has shown risk by completing (in era) the last three expansion hunter achievements (EOK, TBM, TDS) cannot get a 2300 h/m/e augment because I have not gone into level 40 zones and killed level 42 named?
I would hope that talk of an augment can be forgotten about and thrown under a rug. Someone talked about an illusion from that expansion, or a mount... those are wonderful ideas. I am not personally against a reward from completing Planes of Power hunter achievement (as an example), provided that reward is cosmetic in nature. But requiring Planes of Power hunter achievement in order to obtain a 2300 h/m/e augment is not right, given that this was 16 years ago.
Now if you want to start something new with the current expansion, fine. Starting with EOK, completing hunters gets you an augment that starts at xyz. When EOK2 comes out, and EOK3, and whatever other expansions come out for the future, then you can evolve it. But just don't make it retroactive. Please.
Being frank, I personally am not fully on board with adding a reward because of this. At the same time, it's not a showstopper for me either. It just has me lean strongly towards no reward, or perhaps a less valuable reward, but still have a reward (perhaps only a good aug not the "best" aug, except maybe in the time period when there are very few augs...) Do remember that I work on a team, and my opinion is not law. Even when I was Lead Designer.
Well. If we never gave out rewards because of people exploiting the game, there would be no rewards. So while I dislike exploits and exploiters, we can't let the fact that they exist over color our decisions. We should keep them in mind, especially when we design things, but we shouldn't stop making the game because of them.
Yeah. I was rather repetitive with the word "Reward" and continue to be so, but I'm not writing prose where that is a no-no, but a post where I have to be VERY clear, and should not be at all vague about what I am talking about. I avoided the sometimes vague "it" and "this" to be over clear
Eesh Cicelee, where the hell are you getting a 2300 hme aug from this? Next week going to be a 23000 hme aug?
Separate names with a comma.