This is temporary, they apparently got the message that without a multitude of other changes changing rest alone is a waste of time and will flat out make people quit the game. I have zero doubt they'll still do it, but it will come with a revamp of the endurance system.
For now. Melee avoided a major blow, Wizards a blow, and Enchanters - they took it in the shorts again. -R
Worst bit about the proposed nerf was it shows how out of touch the devs are with the melee game, I know they asked for feedback AFTER the initial complaints but the rest change pushed live in isolation just boggles the mind.
The change does make sense as part of a larger program of changes. Their intention with Rest all along was a way to regain mana back after death or during breaks in group sessions, but the nature of triggering it (only out of combat) wasn't really considered in the light of fast ways of dropping aggro. The problem I see though comes from the brief parses I ran. Vs a lvl 103 dummy using just my indefinite sustained endurance (so virtually no abilities, to cope with practically zero drain/gain) I was doing around 30k dps (raid buffed, but no in group support). With all discs being cycled and a major endurance drain it was around 45k. Both of those are amortized; they'll have higher spikes of course (when discing), but this is averaged dps over the duration it takes to repop the disc again. Ie the indefinite dps if we have infinite endurance. So they wanted to stop us doing fade/escape, rest, and instantly engaging? Well sure, this change would do that (at a cost of other problems we all know). However has it actually solved it? What if I escape, rest, wait 90s, and then engage again? Well the answer is my dps is still higher than the 30k base dps when not using any endurance. So it's STILL beneficial to keep spamming rest, only less often and with a 90sec pause. Perhaps I'm being overly simplistic though. This is a bit "all or nothing" parse comparison. For sure I know some abilities just plain aren't worth the endurance cost, so somewhere there is a middle ground. No doubt the optimal approach is "some" endurance drain, to maybe make the endurance regained from a rest last 15 min say instead of just 5 (for example). Starting with a full endurance bar it'll be longer too before the first rest needed, maybe 1+ hours instead of 20-30min like it can be now. It'll be interesting finding out just how to optimise and control endurance, so actually I don't have an issue with nerfing rest. I just have an issue with the implications of it post death. "Don't die" isn't an answer, unless we're getting caster-style runes and unless we're getting lower rampage damage. It's also not an option for tanks usually. At the very least we really need a non-zero endurance pool on rez, say 10%, just to get us rolling again in the same manner that casters can with rods and harvest. (And they don't have the huge slow to battle.) This isn't a please nerf caster call! We just want to be less penalised by this change.
If they want death to have a real penalty then it needs to have a reasonable one. A 5 minute combat timer and the melee slow is just too much. The 5 minute timer means any kind of recovery is out of the question if rest changes in any significant way. It'll be wipe and start over.
I think that's the idea, if you've seen the tower of rot raid or mission they have a vendetta against recovery and or anything that isn't strict management of all resources.
But in general (one specific raid aside) it's very class specific. The death penalty is massive on some classes and negligible on others. It needs some rationalisation.
I agree with you, in that I don't think it's rational. However, for hybrids, resource consumption hasn't been rational for 10 years. Welcome to our world, enjoy your stay.
That's no reason to drive everyone into the same problem, but perhaps a reason to look into your issues too. Also your resources still regenerate quicker (while also being used up quicker?). Quite literaly it takes *several hours* to regenerate my endurance bar unless I use out of combat mechanics. I don't have an issue really with using resources quickly and regenerating resources quickly (eg wiz, nec). It means you can pick and choose what to use, and adapt. That is, I assume, what the devs are aiming for. However without rest melee are in the situation of using resources quickly and regenerating resources glacially slowly, so there is no adaption and choice other than "do we run out now or do we run out later?". It's just wrong that I regularly have 10fold mana regen than endurance regen and I'm a pure melee! Utterly illogical. Nerf rest and give us innate regen of 200+ (still 50min to fully regen) and maybe it'll work.
Even if you look only at the highest bard chorus, it's *9* endurance regen, and like 111 mana. That's it's base values. No problem there, huh? lol
The number's don't really matter in the sense you are using them Harabakc. They matter in terms of actual consumption. Mana regain raw numbers are larger because my abilities cost 3500 mana to use, and yours cost 210. Therefore you don't need to regen more than 9/tick to regain the ability to use it again in 23 ticks. Where as I have to wait 31 ticks to re-use the same resources again. You're actually better off. I'm not saying it makes sense, or is rational. But that's how it is. Our main ability (nuke) takes 31 ticks of mana regain at the rate you stated to be re-used. One of yours takes 23. Hybrids have been like this for years. They're just finally getting around to you. This is a consequence of all those 'Monks have fists of fury, we need something like that too' if you want all the cool stuff everyone else has, they're going to treat you like everyone else when it comes to nerfs and changes. Half of any decent rogues damage (as i'm sure any or all of you know) is completely resourceless as it is. Zerkers are probably the only ones in this entire 'wave of changes' that really have a leg to stand on & lets be honest, they could run out of endurance as long as they get their burns off and still finish at the top, so what's it really matter?
Rogues use the least, monks and zerkers(by far) eat through endurance like crazy. Regardless, the entire system has to be revamped if they're going to change any of it. Because trying to bring any of it into scale without fixing it all just breaks everyone. But honestly the numbers do make sense, since we have no way to gain endurance back other than rest. As a rogue I'll have a few hundred mana regen and less than 100 endurance regen fully buffed.
Thinking with my logical hat on (instead of my zerker one) I don't have a problem with other classes competing over different event distances, in fact that would make the game a lot more fun for those other classes. What does annoy me is zerker overall contribution to raids will be greatly reduced, if they do this then they need to provide zerkers some other functionality to bring to a raid environment (warcry doesn't count as only unsupported groups get its weak benefit now due to the influx of far better skills to other classes), most raids are NOT 2min burn only affairs. In regards to mana vs endurance regen: don't forget that casters have mana reduction AA/Item effects (mana pres) that simply don't exist for melee. As a zerker I spend 1300 endurance on shared viciousness alone which I have to refresh every minute (ish). My endurance pool is around 90k End, that's over 1% of my pool for a buff that I need to keep up during the fight, that ignores triggered skills and spam abilities which all cost end.
You forgot an eventual death that means useless melee for an entire event without any source of endu regen. Even clicking rest and waiting after a death means you come back to the fight with not even 15% endu (rest doesnt regen you to 29% if you click it at 0 endu) and 15% endu is consumed pretty quickly for any melees/tanks. then you do what? you try to escape again and wait 30sec more? you'd better gate to lobby and regen to full there.
Those numbers aren't particularly representative though. There are a number of distinct problems. 1) Costs vs regen. Eg Incursion 648, reuse in 22s. That is one skill of many that rogues spam. By itself it means 177 end/tick drain. That is ONE skill, and probably our most useful one outside of discs and AAs. Now if we had enough endurance regen such that we could pick and choose which of our skills to use, even if just one, then we'd be better off. However right now even throwing away all of our skills bar one, we're still looking at cycling that tiny slither of rogue skill presses once every 90sec or so instead of the intended 22. Basically our regen rate is so pathetic you can pretty much say we do almost nothing other than auto-attack and endurance free things like backstab and kick unless we can regen via Rest. This adversely affects berserkers more than monks and rogues. (Btw rogues use more than monks - I tested it with a fellow monk with both of us burning.) Where the proposal to the rest change fell totally flat on its face was in the intended consequence. The dev plan was we'd use rest when rezzed to regain some endurance, wait a bit, and then engage. Not to escape/fade + rest + reattack. Unfortunately the actual maths works out that it is *still* better dps to escape/fade + rest + AFK 90sec + reattack, than it is to simply not use rest within a long battle. In short it wouldn't really make us "manage resources" any more than it does now. 2) Death. Put simply, we're already crippled on death, massively so. Without the ability to use rods or harvests, our endurance HAS to come from Rest or simply sitting down (which takes 3 mins to even start) and hoping nothing casts an AE that hits us. Maybe make rest a long cast time like harvest is or give us some small pot of endurance on rez. Our endurance pools are large vs our regen that basically you're looking at 4 hours ot regenerate the pool. That means "management" of resources is purely about protecting how long it is before you run out, making death a HUGE issue. Conversely casters have a substantial regen rate so the game play is different. Joining point 1 and 2 together I would actually suggest substantially raising the cost of our abilities (so our pool runs out QUICKER) in conjunction with substantially raising the base regen rate. If done correctly it could give the effect the devs want; a burn phase where we don't mind too much about how much endurance we drain, and a sustain phase where we are selective in what abilities to use in order to achieve an endurance-out == endurance-in balance. Yes it's a nerf, but it's also a boost elsewhere. I'd rather this than the original proposed change to rest. The ideal scenario would be for the base regen rate to allow us to do, say, 1/3rd of our skills. We get to pick which 1/3rd, but it's viable, and not the 1/20th we have now (or whatever it works out to be). 3) Dependence on other classes. We really really don't need yet more dependence on support to do well. We have far more dependence on others than any caster does, so if we are to get balances to endurance regen to offset a change to Rest (which would be an appropriate balancing point) then it ought to be from self, perhaps from gear and/or AA. Gear means so little already that adding it to gear could be a nice deciding factor between various sets. 4) Really, should the best endurance regen out there come from a clicky that is only available in game for a couple months and then removed from dropping again? I speak of the horn from the PoTranq mission. It's 200 end/tick regen *for the group*. With 6 people clicking it you can be that regen on a lot of the time, maybe more than half. That means that click alone is capable of trebling my endurance regen. That smells of a dev adding an item without even knowing that mana and endurance are different. Should such a thing really be time limited? How do new players get balanced vs old ones that happened to be around when the clicky was in game? You're massively penalising the late comers, which goes totally against the ethos of the changes over the last year or two. It's simply *wrong* from a game design view point. I'm not arguing that it needs nerfing, but that the base regen rates needs a huge bump so that it's no longer a bit dispairt.
No disagreement with anything you said, I just don't think it will ever happen with the current state of development. If you can find some one who is dedicated and willing to put in hours they aren't being payed for then it's possible. We can't even get basic things fixed. I get the distinct feeling while this conversation has a purpose in our minds and it's important to the game if they want it kept alive, it's not going to actually matter. I don't think anyone would disagree with a rational approach to class optimization and play that doesn't disagree with the niche styles presented by the different forms of play. I think the problem is even if 100% of every class agreed on every single view point the chances of getting it molded to a way that might be best and not so necessarily most desired is a slim to none chance. I mean I can't even get a response from half the CRT's within a few MONTHS of the AA/Spell requests.
