Whenever I read these threads I always wonder the skill of the player. In certain cases people/these threads have a legitimate point. Other times its people that don't know how to play their class to an excepted level, or seriously don't know what they're talking about. Everyone believes they're amazing, until they meet someone that literally puts them to shame, in a manner of skill. I have seen group tanks tank content like it is nothing. They hold aggro perfectly fine, and tank, even adds, with little problem. Especially if you have a real healer, it becomes possible even for a tank merc. When an add comes a long a lot of tanks i see freak out and die. They don't hit their discs, and use their abilities to their fullest. I have, again, witnessed a warrior, paladin, and shadow knight, in full group gear, tank perfectly fine. If you play your class to its fullest you will most likely be surprised what you can accomplish.
This is true of everything in life really but I believe the OP's point was that the bar is kind of ridiculously high for this archetype compared to others, at least I assume that's what he was getting at. Though, I confess, I haven't been a "group geared tank" since SOD so really I've no idea how the game is like for these players (all I have is anecdotal evidence, though it all points to there being somewhat of an issue here). Raid gear already trivializes that content, skill + raid gear turns it into a joke.
Explicit, I do agree that top end skill + raid gear makes content, especially recent content, a complete joke. But what I am saying is that I have first hand experience playing alts in group gear (tanks), and I have had zero problems completing the heroic missions on them, while using even a healing mercenary. If you use your abilities for what they're intended for, then you can get it done. Even monks can tank this content if they do it right.
So a possible issue here is that people simply don't know what to do. This has very real solutions, one of them would be to implement some kind of tooltip or guide system in-game (that you can opt out of if you don't want to see them, of course). I agree that players -should- know what does what and ideally when they should use x abilities but the reality is that this is far from normal. There are plenty of guides for each class floating around out there (quite a few for tanks, actually) but there is nothing readily accessible in-game. I have a feeling someone out there is going to call this out as "ezmode" but that doesn't take away from its potential usefulness - imagine, a player base that's a bit more educated as far as the ins and outs of their class goes.
Only a dream....... But in all seriousness abilities do have descriptions that explain what they will do, not sure how much more the devs would need to do to add class awareness. My next comment is not a hit on the developers, just a statement. I am not 100% certain the developers play classes at the top end of their potential, or even play the classes at all. They could be great players, or not play at all, and just be talented programmers (this code is old, and difficult to work with). I would like a system where players could create content, like a class guide, and submit it to the developers to be put into the game. Then you could take posts by top end raiders, from class forums, and have them put into the game and be readily accessible. I have free time, like anyone else, and would be willing to put some of that time towards creating guides that could be implemented in game, for the classes I know how to play at a high level.
If you want to tune around wanting (not *needing*, but want is sufficient) a proper tanking class then the idea of further adjustung DI intervals isn't such a bad one. However it can't be done in isolation. In the raid game they'll simply up the damage done to compensate, to keep the difficulty the same (which is what should be done of course). Then you'll find one dead tank means even more carnage of 5+ other players before the next tank gets up and running. Most likely rampage will end up being even higher too, causing more nightmares. So rather than tune up maybe things need tuning down - either mobs or if needs be pets. IMO the main issue is are some pets actually outtanking group warriors? If so that's wrong.
Basically, a community-approved guide for x class - as long as they'd allow it to be revised I think this is one of the best ideas I've seen as far as improving the game and the player base goes. Would it fix all the problems? Nope, but it'd certainly help. Mage pets are insanely front-loaded. I have seen the above posted over and over again for the past year or two now but haven't witnessed it myself, though I haven't exactly gone searching for it.
If a tank has 10k AA and is falling in DH, it means his gear is woefully inadequate and/or he needs to brush up on his class abilities. I'm a group tank with about 9.5k AA, a mix of t4 RoF and t1 CoF group gear. My Augs are far from optimized and range from 20 to 30 AC. I find all DH missions quite easy. I often tank 3 at a time. I could probably push 4 or even 5 if I chose. The only mission where I'd have to pay a bit more attention to is The descending tower facing the captains. But even then they never put me in any real danger. I'm not saying this to show off. But if this guy has 10k AA and is stacking everything to survive, he is definitely under geared, or needs to learn more about his class abilities.
first of all, mage pets werent nerfed to keep them from tanking group content. read back thru the posts at the time and you'll see the issue was to prevent mages from tanking raids. changes were implemented that supposedly didn't affect group content, and were limited to tanking raid content. this implies, of course, that the pets in question had raid level focus. comparing a raid tank to a group tank is problematic, even when looking at pets. second, where are the mods? this is an obvious call for nerfs to mages.
ive tanked all the HA as a grp geared paladin. I agree that some of the dead hill ones where rough but certainly doable , might have to use a disc on a red con trash though , if grp geared tanks needs a boost they should look at our shields , 215ac vs 290 is quite alot since its shield ac ( 10 more if you count the naggy aug )
Group Shields are currently 73% of the AC Raid shields are. If you want a better Shield you do have options http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=101027 <- From Illdaera's Vengeance http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=89915 <- Convo http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=95261 <- Upper House All of those Raid events are doable with 1 group. Plated Heater is the best/easiest one to get, and its 20ac better then current group shield (which is pretty significant, significant enough to warrant 500hp loss) No Good Tank will be outtanked by a pet, except in some odd outlying scenarios. Learn how to use your defensives/clickies. Read the Lucy spell Data/parse everything, Pay attention to the tanking parse everytime you try something out of the ordinary. Have proper DPS/Healing in your group. Slow or ATK debuffs (although really, These missions are beyond easy, a Knight can do them WITHOUT a healer and a Warrior can probably do them with just a BST patch healing).
Thanks for the link , but why should a shield from underfoot be that higher ac than the grp shields avail in current expansion? having tank grp shields at 240/250ish ac wouldent be overpowered compared to raid shields and only thing it would do is make it easier for grp tanks to tank.
As a raider, I can say that I honestly would not care if they gave group players better shields and in fact I think they should.
10k aas war..dying on those mission? must be either drunk or stupid. i tanked all the ha's and quite a few missions as a monk with a 2hb..never had trouble. like other posters said the tank just doesn't know how to play if he is dying with 10k aas and maxed group gear to trash mobs in the group game.
This is incorrect Mage pets were deemed to strong and were nerfed not to stop them tanking current content but to stop them tanking 3-4 white/yellow conned mobs at the same time. They still tank normal and named mobs in current content just fine. Just not as well as they used to.
As a completely group geared Sk (And i have a paladin alt) I agree More AC on shields would be nice, and more AC on group gear in general would be cool... But its not really necessary given the content we have to tank in. But really the HA's/group missions are so laughably easy I wouldn't feel right asking for MORE ability to tank. My group geared monk friend tanked All the HA's/Group missions when we were doing them for my undergeared Paladin alt... For those tanks having trouble Are you using Self/guild tribute? If not your leaving ALOT of AC on the table. Personal tribute at 100 is something like 95ac Personal Trophies at 100 is something like 105ac Guild Tribute at 100 is something like 150ac? Guild trophies at 100 (non raid) is something like another 75ac Thats 425ac that counts as GEAR AC... (IIRC how tribute works) Thats a pretty substantial amount of AC Factor in AC food/drink if your not using it is another 150 Thats 575ac... Given the content thats 5 to 10% decrease in INC Mob dps and a decrease to the chance of getting Rolled by a lucky round. If your using all that and still getting rolled... you realize tanks have so many clickies and cooldowns now theres literally no reason to not have some form of disc/clickie up at ALL times?
he has 10k AA's..... are they the correct AA's.. I can have 10k and choose complete BS AA"s .... str/dex/agi/int/wis etc... there are dps aa's etc... the question should be..... DO you have CA'CS maxed? what other AA's do you have for tanking? Is he using a shield with shield AA's.... these are important... numbers of AA's is not.. .its how he spent them.
at 10k AA it would be pretty hard to not have CS/CA and most of your archetype/class page maxed. If not all your AA's, at 10k you would literally have to be making an effort to NOT have the AA's you need. Failure at that level falls on individual skill/gear More then AA choice (because 10k its almost impossible to NOT have the right ones)
