How to fix group tanks...

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Trasa, Dec 28, 2013.

  1. Tharrg Augur

    I went for all defensive.. with some offensive to help with dps. I am still lacking about 150AA before I would feel comfortable. That being said I dont want them to give free AA/Gear.. Ide rather them fix how Warrior Tanks take hits and take damage to be more viable wearing the plate armor than they are now. I would like to see a major boost.. back to the levels we once were at.....in the old days...
  2. alidan Lorekeeper


    look, you have to max, thats end of discussion.

    the way everquest worked was you get an expansion, get 6 months to a year to catch up with your character, and there, new content. they didn't keep making new content for people who need to play catch up and wont even get the bare minimum required aa.

    you are level 80, you should kill in secrets of faydower content, or early seeds content. that is it, go max aa there.

    and if someone claims a zone, ignore them and kill in it anyway, they train you, report them, stop making these stupid excuses.
  3. Daegun Augur

    This thread has grown stale. Nobody is saying anything new.

    I don't raid. I have not found grouping to be unfairly hard. Tanks are more gear dependent but they always have. This is nothing new. Welcome to Everquest. Some classes solo well. Some classes level faster than others. This is also nothing new. I feel the problem is being exaggerated - it's there, but its not as bad as some seem to think it is.

    Full disclosure: I played a warrior before mercs. I also played before Luclin portals, pok or the guild hall. I stocked my backpack with bandages. Yes there are fewer players at low levels, but with mercs you have a permanent sidekick - an advantage that at low leveled is comically overpowered and at high levels basically ensures that you can always do something. Maybe not the best something, but better than sitting at a zone line waiting for a group spot to open twiddling your thumbs. Find ONE other person and bam ... You've got a reasonable healer if you play a tank and at least one reasonable dps via wiz merc.

    Yes it gets harder 80-95, but there are plentiful sources of overpowered gear all the way up through RoF.

    I'm a grouper. I have played a tank through TWICE in the last 18 months to level 100 and a few thousand aa. It's not that hard and it didn't take a huge amount of effort. I'm a pretty smart guy and I like to think I play better than most, but with more limited playtime and 2 small kids, I'm distracted most of the time and not on my A game. Despite this, I had no difficulties.

    Tanks are and have always been gear dependent. Since aa went live there has also been a requisite aa requirement to do current content. You are the point man for your group, and if you aren't prepared the group will not compensate for your deficiency as well as they could compensate for a poorly geared dps. Welcome to eq, it's always been like that.
    Melanippe and Ravengloome like this.
  4. Ravengloome Augur


    How the heck can you even assess what your character CAN do when you don't even have the AA's to properly assess how well you will tank? Warriors are/were fine, you just need to actually have your defensives CURRENT to your LEVEL.

    After that, if you still have an issue it MIGHT be a content issue, but given the fact the content your slothing your way through has already been proven to be doable by a tank your level with gear WORSE then what you have access I doubt it needs to be tuned any differently or anything needs to be fixed.

    SO the onus of your issues really lies entirely on your shoulders its not a class or archetype thing.
    Melanippe likes this.
  5. Tharrg Augur

    Lets break down what so far has been mentioned as possible fixes:

    --Craft-able Augments that are 25-35 AC that are non lore.

    --Free CA/CS

    --HM group content that rewards tokens usable to buy Raid Gear

    --Quests/group content that rewards tokens to buy Raid Gear

    --Recoding Mobs to do damage intervals 1-20 and warriors take only 1-15.

    --There has been suggestion to give warriors an AA line to further reduce damage that is faster repop

    --AA line to increase solo playability like a cleave etc that can insta kill like some other classes.


    ----- I dont think I missed any.. but I didnt skim the whole topic. This is just from memory. Lets try to argue the benefits and or why or why not these would work. I am going to ignore any further post that is not on topic with what fixes can be done. You have an opinion that there is none, dont post.
  6. alidan Lorekeeper


    ok point by point


    --Craft-able Augments that are 25-35 AC that are non lore.

    this i can agree with. getting augs can be a crappy process, killing in content that is beneath you, to get augs that are almost if not a requirement, they should have no stats, and should not be over 30ac

    hell i would argue that they shouldn't be over 20ac

    though with heroic missions giving augs for underfoot alaris and thul... this is mitigated to a large extent.

    --Free CA/CS

    to a certain point. i personally think aa should be auto granted till you are level 85, either in giving you the aa's or just giveing you a pool of aa's once you hit a new level, you want to do more aa, fine, thats your call, but you don't have to. low levels are a massive grind till you get higher, that i will give you.

    --HM group content that rewards tokens usable to buy Raid Gear

    no, or at least not current raid gear. you sould have to raid to get it, and you should have to do the current raids. though i do think there should be hard missions that are just barely doable by group geared players that give you the ability to get raid gear.

    --Quests/group content that rewards tokens to buy Raid Gear

    same as above. make a really hard and involved mission, that is barely doable, and give us a way to get raid gear.

    personally i want tier between group gear and below raid gear, but this is probably the best we can get.

    --Recoding Mobs to do damage intervals 1-20 and warriors take only 1-15.

    no, just no... gear up, get aa's, and this isnt hard, anyone who argues this just shouldn't be playing a tank, leave it to people who understand what they are doing, or are willing to learn and not come to the forum and whine about "i cant do this its to hard"

    --There has been suggestion to give warriors an AA line to further reduce damage that is faster repop

    are you already running out of defensives to click as a warrior that would require more defensives to click?

    --AA line to increase solo playability like a cleave etc that can insta kill like some other classes.

    personally, i think those abilities should be nerfed or taken out, and instead lumped into killing blow for everyone, and instead of finishing blow being only at 10% (does the mob have to be running? i never got finishing blow because it seams useless) have it a smaller damage like 20-30k that goes off more often, it would work like decap but everyone who is willing to melee can do it. it would make killing the mobs faster, and would take away rangers lock down of open zones and take away berserkers ability to just tear through mobs.

    but that's my opinion.
    Tharrg likes this.
  7. Equanimity Journeyman

    For my part, I don't play a tank so I don't have any first-hand knowledge. What I saw in VoA trying to keep a tank alive against the named there was:

    Extreme damage spikes from melee (flurries mostly I think).
    High damage special abilities, whether it DoT or DD, AE or single, those really hurt and usually went off more than once per fight.
    Discs running out before the mobs were dead.

    The combination of those factors resulted in very unpredictable fights which we died just due to randomness frequently. Often if we died then recovered and did the exact same thing again we would win instead. Nearly every named we needed to kill was like this, we could kill them but it was really frustrating. Whether the problem is not good enough tank gear or not good enough dps gear, we would still need to kill the same mobs to fix it.

    Someone earlier suggested toning down the t1-2 mobs then making the t3-4 harder, that sounds reasonable. I suppose buffing the t1-2 armor might have helped too. Someone also mentioned earlier spending 20 hours a week to be successful as a tank for group content, that sounds quite unreasonable to me. For raiding, sure, but not to just get through the group content.

    As far as the augs go, I am almost positive that they were all current. I imagine that adding some crafted ones as a stop-gap to the current expansion would have been most welcome.

    Again, with the AA, I'm almost positive that all of the relevant ones were maxed. I am somewhat indifferent on auto-granting them.

    I really do not care at all for head-shot, decapitate, assassinate, etc. I think that they have had a very negative effect on the game.

    I do not think either that I should have access to raid gear without killing the mobs. I also don't think that anything in the group content should require having it.
  8. shiftie Augur

    You fought a big bad boss and died? the horror...
  9. Battleaxe Augur

    Let's break down what has been mentioned as improvements people can make to their tanking characters:

    Consult
    http://www.evilgamer.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4870 and http://www.raidloot.com
    to determine a quick and easy set of augments. Obtain them. Continue consulting those two resources to determine how you might upgrade your least acceptable augs and begin working on that.

    make good use of AA acceleration, double experience weekends, and achievement AA's to acquire AA's and spend them as outlined in various threads found at http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/ , http://www.evilgamer.net/ , or http://crucible.samanna.net/ depending on your class.

    Take advantage of newer group gear that is better than the group gear people had availble when the content you are doing was current. This includes Onthi, Reis, and random drops in RoF Tier 1. Pay attention to Anniversary, Hardcore Heritage, and other special events.

    Review posts about mitigation and the so-called "-1 DI" change to Warriors and the later 5% shifted from Defensive/Final Stand to permanent mitigation. Read about how AC affects mitigation and shields - particularly shield AC not being subject to the softcap and Shield Block. Know your survival abilities, disciplines, and/or spells inside and out.

    Be aware of SOE's stance on classes, their roles, and things that are not their roles. That includes situations that are under examination like swarming, DPS while tanking, and DPS while substituting for a DPS class (not tanking).

    Since tanking is a group role and it's what all of the tanking classes excel at box, partner, create a meets regularly static group, join a guild, and/or /lfg (least effective). Without a group a tank is a lot like a tire without an automobile. It's what we were built to do and every effort should be made to do it.

    I'm sure I missed a lot but these are the measures taken by a horde of tanks to improve their characters. Characters in classes that are not broken, don't need off the wall fixes, and while perhaps benefiting from (or protesting) a tweak here or there are all viable (which is not to say each individual tank is viable - just the classes - at every level).

    IF you disagree, you are of course entitled to post your opinion. And some very knowledgeable and experienced players may agree or disagree with it. Tyvm.

    I had a big bad boss kill me once. OK it wasn't once - it was seventy-eleven times, Stupid game always trying to keep a /played 1122 days Warrior down. I should be level 500 if some people given what they've done deserve level 90. Kill a mob with a single blow??!! I should kill that mob and all of his relatives at a single blow then.
    Melanippe likes this.
  10. Ratbo Peep Augur

    This all seems so simple to me. :)
    If you want to make a JOB out of the game, then you try to build a Ranger that can actually tank "reasonably" well. But, to say that you need to "max most everything" on a Tank class - in order to make it a viable tank is a problem. One look at Tanks vs Mage pets - or even the Tank Merc vs the other Mercs; makes it clear that there IS an "issue" with the "general" tankability of tanks.
    Smart play? That's for Enchanters, Bards, etc. The typical Ogre or Barbarian Warrior should not have to be the brightest bulb in the group to simply "hold aggro and take damage". (If you want to have a bit smarter play, then pick an SK or Pally.)
    The game should not have to become "a second job" to succeed, unless you are trying to push a class beyond it's designed functions. And to hold average players to the standard of those with nothing to do BUT play EQ - is also not real fair.
    -Rat
    Tharrg likes this.
  11. shiftie Augur

    I think we should go back to the era of ...

    Player_01 types: /lfg on
    Player_02 sends tell, "Hp/ac/aa"
    Player_01 replies, "x/y/z"
    Player_02 sends tell, "Oh NM we found someone else"

    This idea that playing a tank is so hard in upcoming content "IE not current" is ridiculous. Expansion A launches and lasts a year, over that time tanks farm the gear and complete the expansion. Expansion B launches and new gear/augs purchasable from /baz along with new aa/levels/spells are added and player B has access to these new toys that were not available to the first subset. Player B fails to complete expansion A even with the help of awesomesauce from expansion B and then claims that expansion A is overtuned and "too hard".

    The question is "how"? How is that even possible or a valid complaint?

    Stop skipping progression and racing to the end game. This will probably alleviate your problems. Find level appropriate groups when you can and when you can't find things to farm.

    A great example would be... at level 85 you are 5 levels ahead of SoF content, with two expansions worth of AA upgrades and gear at your disposal. are you really taking time to go to Crystallos to farm the 35 ac aug for a shield? Or are you using a 15 ac hotzone aug in your shield? Have you gone back to farm useful clickies or random things that will make your life better or are you only buying illusions from the marketplace?

    I get really disappointed when I see threads like this develop overtime. They start out about a problem with balance at max level which is usually a result of some obscure user error or the content really needs to be fixed. Then they devolve into complaints about how a player can't solo without a merc as a warrior or something equally silly.

    I mean seriously... People get it, it is much easier to play a wizard to max level and contribute while limping along and getting upgrades. Tanks will never play out like that. Get over it.
    Melanippe and Khat_Nip like this.
  12. Ravengloome Augur


    1) discs running out before the mob dies is not a tank issue, that is a failure on the part of DPS classes in your group. If you can't get a mob dead in 180 seconds... Your group needs some DPS
    2) 20 hours a week is not much at all for an involved hobbie
  13. Melanippe Augur

    One does not have to be max to be viable. One DOES, however, need to have made intelligent decisions regarding AA's and one DOES have to acquire the best gear one is able to acquire. One must also learn ones characters abilities and make intelligent choices on where to level. Far too many people push to reach max level with no thought given to making the character viable along the way by doing what every tank has always had to do! Gear up! When AA's were introduced, people who played tanks got those AA's that improved a tank's main function, which is to take a beating and keep on ticking (with the help of a healer).

    You asked "Did you do it alone?"

    In one years time, I took a Necromancer, a Cleric, a Ranger, a Wizard, a Paladin, a Magician and an Enchanter from level 60 to level 80 without using mercenaries, 90% of the time SOLO, each character earning from 800 (the casters & the Cleric) to 1200 (the Paladin & the Ranger) AA's. I acquired Defiant Gear followed by the Glowing Athlai and Glowing Othni via the Bazaar for all of them, paid with the platinum earned while soloing. ALL of them used the 50/50 formula, 50% experience to regular and 50% to AA's. Using that formula, each character was able to earn the important and necessary AA's to be viable as they leveled. I took advantage of Healing Potions, Clarity Potions, Alacrity Potions, Poison potions (Yes even on the casters), Regeneration Potions and the best available buffs I could get! No, I didn't use Experience potions, but did use Lesson of the Devoted whenever possible. One character at a time, each session running around 2-3hrs per night. That is seven characters each gaining 20 levels plus AA's in one years time. Yes, all alts. I do like the diversity. :D Repeating for clarity: NO mercenaries for any of them, no boxing and very rarely grouped. If I never again see Plane of Innovation, Plane of Storms, Halls of Honor or Plane of Fire I shall be a happy camper. ;) Oh and my Main was not neglected. :) Each one of those characters is viable and can hold their own in a group in the appropriate zones and, as of now, NONE of them is max level or max aa's...yet. :) Oh, they did each get a Journeyman V mercenary when they hit level 80 with the kind help of guild mates.

    Repeating, one does NOT have to be MAX to be viable. Nothing needs to be corrected except the idea that leveling is enough and one can "catch up" on AA's and gear whenever. Things need NOT be adjusted.. What needs adjusting is the mind-set of players who believe it's the game that needs adjustments and not the attitudes and expectations of the players.

    As for augments, do you have http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=78813

    Bayle's Heraldic Crest

    MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE AUGMENTATION
    Augmentation type: 7 8
    Slot: HEAD FACE EAR NECK SHOULDERS ARMS BACK SECONDARY CHEST
    AC: 32
    CHA: +15+5 HP: +75 MANA: +75 ENDUR: +75
    SV FIRE: +10 SV DISEASE: +10 SV COLD: +10 SV MAGIC: +10 SV POISON: +10
    Clairvoyance: +5
    Recommended level of 80. Required level of 70.
    WT: 0.0 Size: TINY
    Class: ALL
    Race: ALL

    See below for the series of tasks and missions:

    http://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/Bayle's_Heraldic_Crest?
    Githy likes this.
  14. Githy Elder


    If you knew that aa's were king, why did you not get them? Why did you level with too few aa's, when even silver has 1000 cap? So either you DIDN'T know, or you deliberately gimped yourself...if only you'd applied that force of will to researching your class.

    I refer you to your own quote above...

    You ARE a bad tank. Let me make that less personal - your character is a bad tank. Your CHOICES have made your character bad at tanking, and no amount of skillful button-pushing on your part will change that fact...I now refer you to the first quote from you above, and then I invite you to reread the second quote from you above and consider how it might apply to you.

    And finally, I refer you to a quote above from Melanippe's post.
    Now, to your list of possible changes, I agree with you that a possible move would be to autogrant tanks the CA/CS aa's (as a nod to the fact that they are tanks), and I would add an in-game level-by-level guide on what aa's you should purchase, to what level and when, so that no-one finds themselves in your unfortunate situation.
    Melanippe likes this.
  15. Melanippe Augur

    You keep insisting something needs fixing.

    1: Non-Lore AC 25 augments? See below. No, they are not craftable. No, they are not Lore. They are not even Prestige! Yes, you do need to camp them. It took approximately seven hours over three nights to get five of them for a Paladin.

    Shard of the Guardian:
    MAGIC ITEM NO TRADE PRESTIGE AUGMENTATION
    Augmentation type: 7 8
    Slot: EAR RANGE FINGER
    AC: 25
    HP: +25
    Required level of 70.
    WT: 0.0 Size: TINY
    Class: ALL
    Race: ALL

    2: Free CA/CS ? If one earns the AA's as one levels, instead of ignoring the need for AA's in a rush to level, one would be max'ed in both as one levels.
    3: If you want Raid Gear, join a Raiding Guild and get some! Raid gear is NOT required to become a successful group character!
    4: See #3
    5: Recoding mobs to make it easier? Just how much easier does it have to be?
    6: Adjustment to timers on discs may be something to be considered. There is also the idea of waiting till your discs are ready before engaging that tough mob. It's something that tanks do every day now. In addition it is important to learn the best sequence to maximize your effectiveness and be ready when the doo-doo hits the fan, just in case.
    7: Why? Warriors have the AA line Finishing Blow. This whole fascination with Headshot, Assassination & Decapitation has led far too many people to believe that this is all a ranger, a rogue or a beserker can do! To the detriment of each of those classes !
  16. Battleaxe Augur

    While I agree with your post, I agree that this aug is very nice at level 80, and I'd point out that in the course of doing it a character can complete a Hero's Journey achievement and net a Paragon's Targ plus another Paragon's item that you select making this an awesome 3 for 1 deal that did not originally exist when the aug quest was put in the game...

    ...things change a bit when Heroic Characters go into the game (if they award level 90) . At 90, 92 is right around the corner, Brazen Barricade picked off yardtrash in RoF looks pretty good, and the aug has dropped in importance.

    I agree that as the game stands today it doesn't take much research or that much effort to do the aug and reap all the rewards at 80 (My 77 Ranger is almost done with Curing the Corruption) things can change and should you be working on a character in the vicinity of a change (you're past this stuff so might not have known) you have to stay out in front of it.

    (I started reacting, avoiding likely wasted effort and focusing on what would likely be effort that would matter when that Publisher's letter announced Heroic Characters. Yeah I wasted some effort and I was deeply disappointed/in denial but as the wind blows the twig is bent.)

    Oh, if a tank doesn't automatically do CA/CS they aren't entitled to get them free. SOE is unlikely to give such a character what they should actually be given - they're too nice.
  17. Melanippe Augur

    May all the gods and Big Bad Bosses of Norrath protect and defend us from so-called "Heroic Characters" !!!

    Opps, my bad. Shard of the Guardian is Prestige.
    Ratbo Peep likes this.
  18. Ratbo Peep Augur

    Speaking of Bayle's Crest - Is there a reason it ought to be put in any specific piece of gear?
    -Rat
  19. Gladare Augur

    It fits in secondary which makes it a shield aug candidate if you don't have anything better. Shield is the only slot where augs are placed there specifically. Hrm well damage augs are placed specifically too.
  20. --Voodoo-- Augur

    Tharrg's problem is not gear, or augs, or even AA. He even states that he's able to tank. His expectations may be a little high, but I don't think that's his real problem. His main problem is that he's levelling behind the curve, without groups, with a character that's not particularly well suited to that role. His proposed solution seems to be to improve tanking.

    I don't agree with his solution, or even necessarily that there needs to be a solution, but I can sympathize with his situation. Being behind the curve can be tough, I imagine even more so for those who aren't strong solo (or don't like to solo).

    His secondary issue is that tanks have a higher gear requirement than other classes. Again, I don't agree that it's a big issue. Requirement just comes with the fact that tanks benefit more from gear. I think he has an exaggerated opinion of that requirement, especially at lower levels where these days it's actually easier to over-gear via the bazaar than it is to actually get the gear appropriate for whatever content.

    I do agree that augs are a bit of a problem at higher levels. Tanks shouldn't have to travel the world, slogging through boring, trivial old content or anniversary events that hardly anyone does anymore, for augs. Not because it's too hard, but because it makes for a poor gaming experience. Fortunately, higher levels do have some nice tradeable augs, which is a step in the right direction. More of that, including some tradeskill options, would be a good idea.
    Tharrg likes this.

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