How important is it to play your best on a raid?

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Cicelee, Mar 15, 2013.

  1. savrin Augur

    I do not like the slackers either, but it is not required to burn hardest or heal parse highest to win most raids. Nowadays it just requires a max raid with a good balance of healers, tanks, dps to win raids. Never said I like that people will slack off during raids but they will. And if you yell at them or something unless you're in a top 10 guild they will just find another place to be. I dunno what guild you're in but mine is one that can't afford to lose bad players so we have no choice in the matter. I always play the best I can and that is what matters to me. I do not worry about others since raids are not so difficult we cannot progress. I never said its okay to have incompetent people on raids...those people we can do without. It's kinda hard to get all 54 people playing at their best anyways. Everyone has bad nights and such. And raiding really is not that hard to begin with. It certainly helps when most of the raid is doing all they can like I do, but its not required and I am glad it isn't. In my guild people who intentionally are lazy every single night? I don't want them and I will tell leaders that they suck and should not be invited ever.
  2. Calirian Journeyman

    I don't understand how or why people would join a guild that raids and expect to give anything less than 100%. Not wanting or not being willing to give 100% is just being selfish. Why should people expect to be carried by the ones who actually do give 100%? Not saying that anyone here is guilty of that, just my own personal opinion.

    When you slack on raids, or in groups, SOMEONE will feel it, and SOMEONE will have to make up for your slack. So now the people giving 100% now have to give 110% because you decided to only give 90%. That's what happens when you play in a team environment. Someone will always have to make up for what you lack. There are those of us who are used to this, or who are marginally okay with this, because we give 100% anyway. It's just bad team sportsmanship to expect to be carried, or to waltz in not willing to give it your all.

    So it's very important that I give 100% to my raid, whether I'm playing my cleric or my wizard. It's also incredibly important that my people also give 100%, when they don't, it's noticed and something is said. We are human, and sometimes we have off nights. There's been many a night I've healed with a trashcan beside my computer chair because I didn't want to let my guild down. The morning I had my wisdom teeth cut out, I was raiding that night, granted I was on painkillers, but I was there none the less. Others have also done this, and while we don't expect a cookie for it, it does tick us off when people give less than their best, even when we're giving our best at our worst. A lot of the times people will find that it's not content or strategy that holds you back, sometimes its yourself and the people on your roster. And that's why it's always important to log in and give it your best, even when you don't feel like it.
  3. Piemastaj Augur

    100% or bust plain and simple.

    If I choose to give less then 100%, I simply do not raid. You're being ignorant by choosing to waste 53 other people's time by only giving 10%.

    As to the Magician issues in this thread, lol. Parses and the proper way to play a Magician on raids are at: eqmagetower.com.
    Camou the Persistent and Tegila like this.
  4. Battleaxe Augur

    From your initial post sir. The one that focuses on some kind of 100% to be met by all individuals rather than focusing on what it takes to maintain a great guild that's effective and has high morale when abilities vary from person to person and always will.

    Did you give YOUR 100% today??? Um, managers ought to be well beyond the point of creating threads lamenting that players aren't machine parts.

    BTW, if people want to look really uber they should be saying "110% or Bust - to heck with that 100% stuff." And oh yeah, if they are in one of the 15ish guilds that have beaten RoF (I am) they should tell everyone else to "play better" while they're at it. Makes ya look studly.

    Coming Soon:
    Armor - Yes or No?
    Who likes Mom and Apple Pie??
  5. Hatsee Augur

    I would say that I regularly give around 9%.

    Learning new raids I probably peak at around 14.5%.

    I can't wrap my head around this 100% everyone keeps saying, even as you said there are writeups on how to play correctly and with some audio triggers, socials to activate things, and then well built spam keys... Anyone can play without really knowing anything or trying 100%. Heck this post took more effort than raiding 4 hours does.
  6. Starla Elder

    Why would anyone not try their best? Seems rather self defeating. I mean really why waste the time being there if you didn't give your all? Some have things going on behind them as they sit and play and I don't mean a TV...i mean like a screaming roommate or child. May not be all the time or even a rare occasion and could be unexpected for the player or to even just have a off night due to lack of sleep and realizing midway that logging on was a mistake...lol To not do the best and try is like having someone on a basketball team avoid passes because they don't want to run down the court and would have someone else run down there to shoot it on the basket to win. What kind of player does that make on the team? To try and do you best is simply put raiding 101.
    Tegila likes this.
  7. Battleaxe Augur

    My guess is most gamers play after a long day at work where they already gave it their 100%. The raid gets whatever is left. Something like 50% (going by the percentage of drivers who are impaired after 7PM) are likely chemically impaired. Since this is a sit down/virtual world it is attractive to people who have health and mobility issues. With the game being 14 years old there are a fair number of elderly of near elderly players - not everyone is 20 years old with reflexes like a hot snake any more.

    Etc.

    Guilds can be realistic and accommodating given the lowish population while still making performance improvement suggestions or not. Designers and implementors can target a non-homogenious population and make players look generally good or create highly exclusive content and make most players look bad. I will say that if you make players feel bad about their progress and performance on a regular basis they will look for a more generous game (Blizzard says, "Thank you SOE.")

    My feeling is that you still don't get milk by telling the cow its horrible and beating it with a stick. Others apparently disagree. Even to the point of parsing DPS on trivial content where let's be honest, DPS doesn't matter one little bit. Heck, I've seem people proudly post their burn DPS on the boss after a guild LOST an event to adds - that's how out of tune with team sport and focused on individual numbers some people are.

    The OP was simplistic - "Trying is good, Mmmokay?" Because of that it ignored a whole lot of other stuff that makes for successful guilds and players.
  8. Rasputyn Elder

    Hatsee with the best and most accurate post in this thread so far.

    You guys that keep saying 100%(and 110% wtf) are getting out mathed by Canada.
  9. Camou the Persistent Augur

    We should not mix up different things.

    100% is yet undefined. But in this thread more than just one kind of 100% have been identified.

    Joining a guild is something different than joining a raid. Everybody who joins a raiding guild has to be convinced to have the requirements from the guild fullfilled and his skills will be tested usually if that what the applicant said about his skills is true whilst a trial time.

    Being inside a raiding guild and attenting a raid means that you have to be ready to give all you can. Depending on the personal shape of that day and how concentrated or tired one is he should decide wether to attend, or to leave or be in spare or whatever. But most of the top guilds have some kind of mandatory raid attendence. And there we start.

    A lot of causalities now come up. Of course its hard for a raid guild to have not too many people waiting to attend to a raid and also not too few to have a full force, or at least enough players available from the ideal classes to start something. A player who now has to decide wether to attend the raid or not will also be influenced by external factors like e.g.

    - he is cleric. he is tired. he knows he wont be able to give his 100% but if he doesnt come it might be that his fellows have to chose a lower tier target cause of lacking heal power .. now what?
    - he is DPS. Just a few DPS came online tonight. He is bloody tired, will probably reach only half his possible performance. But the raid force is only 48. He tells the leader he wont come, too tired. Leader says, he gives a damn, raiding day is mandatory and 50% dmg is better than 0%.
    .......

    Another thing is how the skill range among the members of the class of the guild is situated. Some players are outstanding, some are good, some are average. Do we talk about 100% of necessities or do we talk of 100% in the meaning of the absolute top maximum possible? I cant tell you about other classes, but in my class ( Enchanter) we share our duties sometimes, whilst sometimes everyone of us does what he can :) Since we are 3 one takes over crack rebuffing in fight, one takes haste, one takes SG. Spells with long reuse timers are only used on specific order. So how to measure 100% .. 100% of what? Skill? Abilities? Activity? Concentration? Of all?

    Define what you expect with 100%, then we can talk about how to measure the players to it. But even when you have defined this "standard" it will be nothing more than a fairly bad fitting generalisation laying a more or less accepted low level requirement which most probably will be mistaken like most standards. No guild, no community is like any other. Most raids are different to the others. Not to talk of situational impacts (server lag, hickups, disconnects, days shape, mood, exterior influences etc ..).

    Define 100%, then we can talk.
  10. Whim Augur

    I think...there will always be people who want something for nothing.

    When I played, you got chosen to do things because you were good, and people remembered that.

    You were a , and people remembered that.

    There was no recount...and simulator and all that crap to tell you if the person was good. The raid either worked. Or it did not.

    On top of that, if you were good, and nice to others....you were always wanted. :) unless you were a good cleric with clericitits. -.- They got away with everything.

    Sorry, babble.

    Yes, give 100%
    Tegila likes this.
  11. Nylrem Augur

    Rashari please go back and re-read your original post.

    First, you never once stated you used X pet on Y raid because of Z mechanic, you did not refer to any specific raid, mechanic, or event at all. You also specifically stated that using an inferior dps pet to a maximum dps pet was NOT a pity for other players. THOSE statements are what really evoke strong emotion, for me. Even on events that I cannot use a water pet on, I feel it's a pity and mourn the loss of the dps I must forfeit because of Z mechanic.

    Your original post in this thread not only gives the impression that even if you would know water would be better for an event that you intentionally choose a worse pet because of 'personal preference' and is why I stated what I did, the way I did, comparing dps of pets on best water vs. worst fire pet dps in a general raid target way, not specific events. Obviously different events/mechanics occasionally require different pets and we cannot always use the water pet to best effect, but that is not the impression you gave, stating how you determine which pet to use. If you choose a certain pet because of a certain mechanic because it will kill a water pet (large DS, melee immune, susceptible to fire spells only, etc) or for a similar reason, that is understandable, but that is not what you stated, at all.

    I probably should not have blatantanly assumed what your guild has or has not done vs. your attitude and if your guildmates shared this attitude, that is where I could see where you believe I am trolling and I could have done a better job and just left the last 3 sentences off my original post. After reading another poster's comments about only needing 3 core groups performing to their best in order to beat an event, and the rest are mainly fillers, I tend to agree with him/her.

    I respect people that don't know things, but continue to try to learn. I respect that people are far from perfect and mistakes will happen. I respect that people get distracted, that real life happens, that sometimes wipes happen when we are distracted during raids and so on and so forth. I respect that this IS only a game, and not life or death. However, I also respect that 53 other people are depending on me to do my job, to the best of my ability, at that time and that failure to do so can make it more difficult for 53 other people, or possibly even wipe an event. If I cannot devote enough attention to a raid to play to my fullest (that is NOT necessarily 100% of my attention) then I will not raid.

    I have no respect at all for anyone that knows what the best thing is for a raid or event, for their toon to do at that particular time, and refuse to do it because of an uncaring attitude, laziness, or just plain lack of respect for the 53 other people in their raid.
  12. Tegila Augur

    100% is 100% of what you personally can do at the given time under the given circumstances with your current given knowledge and physical/mental well-being. Not giving 100% is choosing to watch tv during the raid blindly and randomly hitting a button now and then to look like you're doing somethign, rather than recording the show on tv and paying attention. Giving 100% also means recognizing your own weaknesses and striving betweeen raids to improve upon them. Some may need more improving than others, but at least TRY to do waht you do know how to do at the time you are there. I'd rather have people that arent all that knowledgeable or wellgeared/aa'd than a buncha ppl taht know everything and have every pieceo f gear in teh game but would rather go watch a football game while getting raid attendance for doing nothing. Not everyone has the same capabilities as each other, however everyone has the ability to try their best. if your best isnt as good as my best so be it, but if your best is your best and what you strive to do, and i sit there and dont pay attention or put forth any effort, who would you rather have?

    giving 100% is giving 100%. of YOU of YOUR ability under the given circumstances, which may change from night to night, not givign 100% of your neighbor's ability or 100% of the absolute best anyone of that class can ever possibly do (though trying to improve toward that by askign questions or doing research, farming xp or augs etc..that is part of giving your 100% overall, just not on a given night unless theres a question you can ask that once answered will improve your 100%'s productivity)

    giving 100% is exactly waht it is. YOUR 100% not your neighbor's or the guy on teh forum's. Yours. if you're halfdead to pneumonia and you come to raid, 100% isnt the same as it is when you'reh ealthy. It could only be 20%, if you dont want to do taht then that's fine, you're sick no one's making you log into eq muchless raid, so dont, but if you show up and join a raid it is your responsibility to do all YOU can on that given raid for the raid to be successful, not just assume everyone else will so your effort doesnt matter...everyoen that has that attitude means more have that attitude and even fewer are actually putting forth the effort, and thus even less gets done.

    if you agree to go in on an office pol for lotto tickets everyone puts in a dollar and gets an equal portion of the winnings if there are any, do you just not put in and assume your neighbor will put in 2bucks because there are 50ppl in the office and theres only 49bucks on teh table? if you dont ahve a dollar but you ahve 87cents, do you ask your neighbor to loan you 13cents but still give the 87 you have, and pay him back later? do you expect the quarterback on a football team to win a game if the rest of his team just sit down on the sidelines and smoke a cigarette while he plays? does the quarterback expect his teammates to show up for practice to improve their play, not just himself?

    the question isnt how important is it to be the best player on a raid, it's how important is it to play YOUR best on a raid. big difference for 53 of every 54 man raid as not everyone can be the best but everyoen can try their best. by joining a rai you agree to try your best on any given night you are there. in life we can all choose wehther or not to join the military, if you dont, then no one expects or requires you to do everything in your power at all times, taht is your choice and that's fine. if you join the military (or a raid in eq) what happens to the people around you directly or indirectly is affected by your efforts. if you're the guy assigned to find and disarm landmines in a militarized zone and you just look at a field and say well we'll jsut say taht one's clear 'cause i dont feel like doing the work today...someone could die. in eq, a raid is the military. anyone slacking can cost the life of another, or of many. how irresponsible and selfish is it to jsut say well im not the commander or the tank i dont have to do 100%?
    Starla likes this.
  13. BoomWalker Augur

    Obviously, everyone should read the management books you were raised on to be a perfect manager. Geesh...the OP was trolling? IS that the point of all these followup posts...suckered by a troll? Or was it a question to bring open and thoughtful discussion about a topic they thought had value?

    Management (you obviously) felt it wasn't worthy of a useful and thoughtful response...leaving the employee (OP) feeling less valued than they should have been...

    Originally ignored the drivel post...but we all need more management-speak training...

    Metrics and during raid performance reviews are not bad leadership. They are tools to be used by leadership...oh wait...GOOD leadership. Bad leadership will just call them bad leadership. It is true that metrics don't tell the whole story and depending on the leadership (good/bad) it can have a negative impact on motivation or not...it just depends on how the leadership decided to handle it.

    LOL, guildmate > alt...always...LOL. Classic bad leadership here... But sure...guildmates in groups over alts in groups is a good thing. But not always...not even close.

    Having you as a manager must be a great experience. Metrics, feedback, and performance reviews are pure evil...and should be avoided at all costs. The hope is that the truth is a little more realistic. More like no public feedback but private feedback exists (which was implied) . Giving no performance reviews...again..hopefully it is more involved...just not mentioned...but sure..we can get all negative about the little info you provided...and just assume no performance reviews...then bad mouth that as a bad concept. Performance reviews are useful...if done properly...by good leadership/management.

    "People are expected to perform well"...right. How about people are expected to perform at a designated level of performance. Now "well" needs to be defined...possibly by using some metrics..*gasp*...so there is a known expectation. People are not expected to perform "well"...just within the expected performance level. And if George is an important part of the team...and has DPS issues...how do you now if no metrics are being gathered? Is it just a feeling? And that discussion about how to improve DPS for George isn't a review of his performance...no...no...it isn't possibly that...

    The definitions that would seem to be reasonable in this context are:
    Sadism:
    - The deriving of pleasure, or the tendency to derive pleasure, from cruelty
    - Extreme cruelty.

    Yet it is strange that criticism = extreme cruelty

    Criticism:
    - an act of passing judgment as to the merits of anything.
    - an act of passing severe judgment; censure.
    - an unfavorable comment or judgment.

    This criticism = sadism comment is befuddling...

    - befuddled - perplexed by many conflicting situations or statements; filled with bewilderment;

    Now lets see if this cow (post) gets hit with a stick...or if it is giving some of that team building spirit that the OP clearly lacked...
  14. Bluejaye Elder

    my guild can't afford to keep bad players. if following emotes means having a pulse, we've got some undead in our midst.
  15. Bronut Augur

    give 100% or don't raid, you are ruining it for the rest of us, imo. (too those that the comment applies)
    Mintalie and Tegila like this.
  16. Langya Augur

    50% of life is just showing up as the cliche goes. Past that, I don't expect as much as some of the chest thumpers on this thread. Emotes are important, and I could forgive someone for not playing their class 100% if they constantly avoided the stuff that wipes the whole raid like missing emotes or always being distracted by TV shows, adult themed content on other websites, or whatever. There are plenty of people who don't parse as high as they should or heal as well or tank as well as lets say...some members of RoI or whatever, but they don't get anyone killed and they show up every night. That is about all you can reasonably expect. That they show up, know the basics and don't miss emotes. That is a strong foundation to build on. People are going to have bad nights but as long as they are not an immediate risk or there isn't a pattern of bad performance than kicking them from the raid for having a bad night is a fine way to assure they won't be logging back for the good nights.

    It is also good for people to be in the right guild for their play style. Some guilds are almost OCD about min/maxxing, parsing and other EQ as a science type stuff which then becomes what they define as "100%" while other guilds are not that regimented. It is all subjective and depends on what standards players set for themselves.
  17. BoomWalker Augur

    LOL...awesome post. Seriously. OCD...love it!

    I can see it on the app..."As a mage, you are expected to parse on raid content at the following levels:

    - level 95 = 20k DPS for all fights lasting over 128 seconds
    - level 100 = 235k DPS for 98% of fights lasting over 58 seconds but less than 98 seconds.
    - level 100 = 198k DPS for 98% of fights lasting over 129 seconds but less than 246 seconds.
    - level 100 = 187k DPS for 98% of fights lasting over 246 seconds but less than 516 seconds.
    - level 100 = 898k DPS for 98% of fights lasting less than 58 seconds.
    - level 100 = 192k DPS for 98% of fights lasting exactly 246 seconds.


    For warriors...

    - level 100 = maintain a heal rate of less than 6% of the total hit points of the raid main boss
    - level 100 = maintain a heal total of less than 1.68 times your maximum raid buffed hit points per target on a raid night.
    - level 100 = maintain a DI usage rate of less than 1.2 times per raid target.
    "

    Not picking on your post at all...it just gave me a good laugh...with you...about it...
  18. Battleaxe Augur

    Everyone is not cut out for management.

    Yes.

    A good line manager knows exactly how well each member of the team is performing on the tasks that the manager assigned them taking into account their personal strengths while also providing an opportunity for growth. He does not need a form to fill out (beyond tasks completed on Microsoft Project).

    A good executive manager replies on his line managers to do their jobs.

    At project end I regularly was told I was the best manager team members had ever encountered. I had an unbelievable mentor.

    Criticism:
    Providing an analysis of the strengths, weaknesses, techniques used, outcome, etc. of an effort or the product created thereby. One can critique an Andy Warhol Marilyn Monroe print or a team member's work without looking in every nook and cranny to find something/anything to criticize. OOooh, I like what you did there!

    You ennoble criticism by implying it's a manager's job to criticize. It's a manager's job to critique sir. There's a difference.

    Befuddling?

    Really? Isn't the function of a manager to provide management services (task breakdown, scheduling, critical path analysis, coordination, etc.) to team members? There is a difference between hitting a drum to coordinate citizen rowers on a galley and cracking a whip on the backs of slaves. Both are concerned with the galley's propulsion but one system values people (People Are Our Greatest Asset!) and the other management system doesn't.

    Creating a thread complaining that all guild members don't give 100% all of the time (in contrast to mentioning it in a general management discussion as the way things are/something one needs to account for) is a pretty good indicator somebody doesn't get it.
    Talif likes this.
  19. BoomWalker Augur

    You make is a magical system there...what form? A good line manager knows exactly how each member is performing without metrics? You omit that part of your post...because it is key to your point. Metrics are needed to evaluate the performance. Metrics using a form on a piece of paper is one method. Looking at the product produced is another (the car has four doors...metric met) just as much as an automated tool that gathers how many lines of code have been modified..if that is the metric deemed proper for the job. The value of LOC can be debated. The value of just looking at the car with doors attached as well. But a metric...which you deem bad leadership...is a useful thing. Your claim that knowing how a member is performing without metrics is laughable. Your just not pointing out which metrics you use to evaluation the performace...during the review period you are using.

    Grats. It still holds that your claim to greatness without metrics and performance reviews is laughable...and undesired by many team members.

    Now the term isn't crittcism..it is critique? Did you use the improper term originally or just trying to step out of this little issue? Oh and grats on word of the day usage. You impress and inspire others to be as inventive.
    The function of a manager? Is that what this thread was about? What does ITIL say about raid performance? Or perhaps ISO 9000 standards on raid performance?

    You belittle the OP about management style...in public...given the great manager you express you are...and yet the target keeps moving...critique this post...or provide criticism...which ever term you are going to change to ...or is it a new term next?

    Strange...all guild members? Is that what the OP said? Wasn't it really a question about do all raid members need to give 100%? Those are the same thing of course...all guild menbers don't give 100% vs do all raid members need to give 100%?

    You win. You are the best manager anyone that has worked for you has ever had...which is great. It speaks volumes to the quality of management out there in the workplace today. Everyone should be as lucky to have a manager that wants to bash people for speaking about a topic they feel is worth the time to speak about...

    Your critisicm of the OP is certainly valued. As for a critique of your critisicm...it was uninspiring and yet demeaning....something all great managers strive for...

    As for the OP...if a raider wants to give 100% effort each raid ...great...most will give 90% or more. Others on the raid...100%? Well it depends on a lot of factors...but the hope is that most are putting in the 90%+ effort everyone else is hopefully striving for as a goal.
  20. Tachyon Augur

    Don't forget to have fun along the way!