How does your guild manage limited debuf slots?

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Windance, May 12, 2021.

  1. Fintank Augur

    Let's be real Mehd, my parse is more important than beating the raid. Numbers are real regardless of the outcome! ;P
    Mehdisin Mahn likes this.
  2. Jordis Augur

    I wasn't suggesting that enchanters not cast dots and I don't remember anyone suggesting that we don't, just that there are some that are less useful.

    My first reaction when the discussion began was an immediate knee-jerk pushback on the dots since I thought that procs for ADPS would be lost. Since things change or get broken I decided to test that premise on the combat dummies starting with Mind Coil Rk. III with no auras running. More than a dozen casts of Mind Coil and not one single Gift of Hazy Thoughts, Synergy or Gift of Magic. Mind Coil is a valuable dot in that it can be Twincast with each dot tick getting Critical Twincast effects because it doesn't have a direct damage component. Another big benefit is that it has a hate reduction component for the caster.

    What surprised me was that the passive procs such as Gift of Hazy Thoughts, Beguiler's Synergy, and Gift of Magic were not appearing with Mind Coil ticks, and only on the initial direct damage component of Pulmonary Grip and Deceiving Constriction.

    So what would the result of not using these dots, which we've been depending on for some time, and tried the straight DD approach or a more considered combination of DoT and DD spells? My primary focus on raids is ADPS and damage mitigation so what I particularly maximize those passive procs..

    Normally, the only dots I keep up are Mind Coil and Pulmonary Grip up which is used in conjunction with Mindrift. Depending on the specific raid there's runes (mitigate melee damage) and spell guards (mitigate DoT, DD and/or DS damage), Tash, haste and/or mana regen, with the rest being nukes. I'm going to do less DPS with Ideological Appropriation (return mana to the group) and Chromatic Stab (proc a rune on the target's target).

    I do get the Phantasmic Reflex with stuns and other spells, but again, largely on the direct damage components. I'd like to do more testing and get some feedback on the idea in practical terms. I don't think that dropping Mind Coil or Pulmonary Grip is expected, and hasn't been suggested in any of the threads on the subject that I've seen. .

    What I did find out with what testing I've done so far is that depending on which of the six direct damage spells I have mem'd, I have managed to cast fast enough to hit the dummy more often than once every six seconds, with more of the passive ADPS procs. If the Alliance spell takes up a slot, and you have three or four enchanters, with one enchanter doing the Alliance and the other(s) doing the fast cast DD damage spells, there is a chance of a fulmination every 18 seconds. Maybe it won't work, but it's not something I've ever seen discussed, partly because so few raid guilds have enough enchanters.
  3. zleski Elder

    With my enchanter I have Composite Reinforcement, Mindrift, Pulmonary Grip and Mindslash on my multi-bind. I rarely ever cast Mindslash since the other spells are usually off cooldown beforehand. I cast Mind Coil and Chromatic Coalition on my own (outside of the multibind) since there's no benefit to casting them over and over like there is with the previous spells.

    Gift of Hazy Thoughts does not proc on DOT ticks; the description refers to spell use (as in being cast). Further, the description refers to "direct damage and stun spells," which Mind Coil is not (it's a pure DOT, unlike Pulmonary Grip which has a direct damage component). Similarly, the Beguiler's Synergy XII is limited to Mindrift (Synergy XI is limited to Mindslash), so you'll never proc it off anything but those limited spells.

    On raids, my enchanter's primary goal is ADPS, and then it's keeping the group at large alive via spell shields (melee runes aren't worthwhile, IMO; let healers keep that in check as it's more efficient for them), and finally personal DPS. Thankfully the ADPS and personal DPS roles are interrelated since the various ADPS abilities are byproducts of our own DPS abilities.

    My personal opinion is those faster-casting DD spells (like Idealogical Appropriation) is just not worthwhile unless there are some very special considerations. While you may proc haze more often, I feel the opportunity cost of not casting Composite Reinforcement, Mindrift and Pulmonary Grip (and to a lesser extent Mind Coil) is too high. Unless your raid force has very strange considerations around debuff slots, your enchanters are better off using Pulmonary Grip, Mind Coil and Chromatic Coalition. (with the Coalition being dependent on the number of enchanters present as it can be hard to proc with too few).

    As this is a thread about debuff slots, it is, of course, up to your raid leadership to decide what spells are prohibited (see Scorn's post, for example) with the understanding of what the consequences (ie, to DPS/ADPS) bans are. The groups I raid with (as Enchanter and Necromancer) have all given approval to the Enchanter spells I've outlined above. Our debuffs such as Somnolence and Mental Contortion have other considerations that are a bit more nuanced.
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  4. Sancus Augur

    The initial cast of a DoT fits the focus requirements for the Gift of Hazy Thoughts AA (the description is wrong). There is no maximum duration or other component that would exclude DoTs. Gift of Hazy Thoughts only has a 5% proc rate, so on average it will proc every 20 casts. Casting Mind Coil a dozen times is not a very good test.

    For reference, on my 105 Enchanter:
    [IMG]
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  5. Szilent Augur

    GGoM has different limiters than GoHT

    19: Cast: Gracious Gift of Mana (115) on Spell Use (10% Chance)
    20: Limit: No Triggered Spells
    21: Limit Min Level: 111
    22: Limit Max Level: 115 (lose 100% per level)
    23: Limit Min Mana Cost: 10
    24: Limit Type: Detrimental
    25: Limit Effect: Current HP
    26: Limit Effect: Current HP Non Repeating
    27: Limit Effect: Current HP Repeating

    1: Cast: Gift of Chromatic Haze III on Spell Use (8% Chance)
    2: Limit Type: Detrimental
    3: Limit Max Level: 253 (lose 100% per level)
    4: Limit Min Level: 90
    5: Limit Min Casting Time: 0.001s
    6: Limit: No Triggered Spells
    7: Limit Min Mana Cost: 1
    8: Limit Effect: Current HP
    9: Limit Effect: Current HP Non Repeating
    10: Limit Effect: Stun
    11: Limit Effect: Stun Spin

    not outlandish to be testing those differences.

    I was similarly able to proc Gift of Chromatic Haze from a Mind Coil cast.

    That both nuke damage and dot damage are SPA0 (that's the "Current HP" limiter) isn't an obvious thing to understand.
    The "Current HP Non Repeating" bit is a funny one because, sure, that includes the nukey bit of Grip (which is SPA79 not SPA0), but Grip already qualifies due to its SPA0 part. The only spells that have SPA79 but *not* SPA0 are the wizard root spells.
  6. Sancus Augur

    I'm aware. That gracious gift of mana also procced in that screenshot (the first time GoHT procced) is a coincidence and not within the scope of my post.
    Testing it is fine; the description of the interaction between Gift of Hazy Thoughts and Mind Coil in both quoted posts was incorrect.
    Szilent likes this.
  7. Sirene_Fippy Okayest Bard

    Small rant inc:

    On certain raids, it is easy for me (a bard) to land 4 DoTs and cycle Boastful Bellow / Vainglorious Shout.
    On others, my DoTs will bounce and I lose a significant amount of DPS.
    This mainly happens when people who don't normally DPS have decided they are now DPSing and a larger portion of the raid is competing for debuff slots.

    I can forego the 4 DoTs and play nukes instead, but my DPS is significantly worse. My current melody is "defensive" of the debuff slots I need (i.e. sustain 4 DoTs and do not let them drop or someone else will take the debuff slot). I would do more DPS if I were cycling DoTs and nukes, but I can't afford to do so or I will lose DPS when I lose the DoT debuff slots to someone else.

    I made a GINA trigger to tell me when I tried to land something on an NPC but it didn't land (because it's full on debuffs - "Your x spell did not take hold on y."). It goes off a frustratingly high amount depending on the raid. Zlandicar is the worst for this; everyone and their mom's pet is trying to land a debuff. Bards don't really have the flexibility of being able to try to recast a DoT if it doesn't land - not without losing all the rest of our songs.

    I also have the pleasure of staring intently at the target window when trying to figure out when I can land Funeral Dirge. If I land it at the wrong moment, it will bounce and eat the timer. If I take too long, the next bard will skip me. Super engaging gameplay. Same for Bellow and Shout. I will sit there staring at the target window basically the entire raid, trying to time the thing so it will actually land. My DPS is highly dependent on debuff slots (I know necros are laughing at me right now).

    Babysitting the target window for debuff slots is miserable gameplay.
  8. Thraine Augur

    my old guild leadership just ran off the people who were casting the dots they didnt like lol

    The new Necro nerf/revamp will probably help a lot with debuff slots
  9. Syylke_EMarr Augur


    That's when you use your Skull of Null right before hitting Funeral Dirge. :p
  10. Jordis Augur


    I realize that a dozen casts of Mind Coil wasn't a good test, it would take hours and I'd have done it on test instead of the one guild hall dummy, but was fairly consistent with the number of times I would use it on a raid and with variations and different dummy models. The same with the other dots. The primary procs I was concerned about were all coming off DD components, and consistent with what I would have expected on a raid. Gift of Hazy Thoughts does have a very low proc rate, thank goodness, since other caster classes have it and it goes off quite a bit with everyone casting anyway.

    This isn't the first time the "save the slots" discussion has come up. The responses have generally been the same, with some spells being banned or limited, and the "my DPS/raid DPS" being DoT necessary push back. The solution has been to limit spell damage and debuffs on mobs, but when did we step back and look at alternatives? How? Could I do as much damage or ADPS with just DD? Does that mob actually need that debuff? It might be great in a group or essential with soloing but those are totally different things from a raid. Alliances take up a buff slot? Great, with the damage they can produce if people cooperate how do we make the most of it? You can't get people to work together? Then you have bigger problems than full slots on the boss.

    Just because something works doesn't mean that something else might not work better, or at least well enough to provide some means to dealing with some unusual mechanics. Creativity is imposed by restraints, and working with and finding ways of dealing with the restraints that have been put on the enchanter class over the years actually made the game more fun (not that I didn't complain or don't still complain about some).

    https://www.inc.com/thomas-oppong/for-a-more-creative-brain-embrace-constraints.html
  11. Behelit Augur

    Only the ench procs hazy thoughts it just puts a song on the whole grp. It sounds like you think your grpmates are proccing it as well?
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  12. Jordis Augur

    Oops. I meant Gift of Mana. Sorry. It was the Hazy Thoughts that I was trying maximize or at least make sure didn't get minimized.
  13. Szilent Augur

    but that doesn't fix it.

    there's no conflict between Gracious Gift of Mana (group) and Gift of Mana (self)

    and dots proc Gift of Hazy Thoughts just as well as DDs
  14. Jordis Augur


    Fix what? There's no conflict, I mixed up the names, I'm slightly dyslexic and it happens.

    Every time the buff slot discussion comes up there's the same arguments, the same don't tell me how to play my class, do it our way or . The whole point of posting about the dots was would I lose ADPS if I wasn't using dots? Basically, no matter how you look at it, the answer is no and I could possibly increase the procs.. Could several enchanters working together with fast DD spells and an Alliance or a single enchanter do as much damage as they can casting dots, even though the dots are good ones?
  15. KrakenReality Augur

    You can just cast Pulmonary Grip and cycle that for its DD component.