How does the dev team see SKs?

Xan, I don't know what you are doing, and I want to tell you, you shouldnt quantify without discs, because you should be using your dps discs, you should be doing way more than that, unless you dont have many AA.

Last night in a group with a 103 druid, 96 druid, 95 monk, 102 monk, 105 ranger, and myself, I sustained over the entire HA (it was one of the gribbles, trying to get some xp for people) ~23k and I wasn't pushing hard, just a decent clip, and the ranger was boxing the 103 druid that was healing me. That was with less dots, I generally only get around 3 on a mob, but have 5 loaded because that content isn't that challenging.

I also want to note I was low on endo most the time as I was using mantle and carapace and spite, I don't use unholy except on raids.

Now that # would go down some on current tds targets, and if you are only doing singles and don't have raid gear, but you did list raid gear in your post. I am at work, but during some of the TDS missions I have parsed around 20k iirc over the mission.

on raids we pull out about 60k over 1.5 mins on a strait burn, but since those are very rare, I am usually pulling in around 34k over 6+ minutes with no bard in group, I do usually have a shammy that is good on clicks.

Lt Rolth (104 seconds) - ewk2 raid in february no adps other than MGB stuff and shammy
Sojero + pets
--- DMG: 6067619 (3.79%) @ 60676 dps (58342 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 387398 @10761dps

How is bringing up current content pointless? Isn't that the basis for conversations disputing player power? Why would I bring up non current content? That's....a terrible argument. You are really stretching now.

And by definition rangers are hybrids, but that doesn't take away from the fact that they are developed around to be purely dps. All pure dps bring similar things to the table as a ranger. Does a zerker not have adps? Does a monk not have utility outside of doing damage? Does a druid do more than just heal? How about a cleric? A warrior? Any class has different abilities.

1) Xanathol is arguing just that - having good dps whiling tanking. Read alittle closer there maybe? I'm not the only one bringing the topic up.

2) Getting spells interrupted is a part of every single casting class in the game, live with it. To even bring that up is nil. And aren't your aggro abilities instant cast now anyways? You shouldn't be getting interrupted too much if you are just dpsing, am I right? You do not have abilities that decrease damage by 95% or things that reduce block/dodge/parry by 60%. Warriors do. Knights in the group game can go tank with a 2h no problem. If a warrior were to choose to, we either take massive melee mitigation penalties or if we don't use the stance, we do less damage than non-stanced SB. Great options right there!

3) There has never been a case where I've seen a ranger as the tank of a group. If you don't have an actual tank, I see either the crappy merc tanks or pets tanks. Just because rangers may be able to tank occasionally in VERY limited situations, doesn't mean they do.

4) No, I didn't neglect that we have higher skills. He was arguing that weapon ratios are practically the same now when I stated that knights were given higher ratio weapons because of their lower skills. It seems like it's you who's neglected to include all the information, sir. I know exactly why knights have crazy ratio weapons, which is what I pointed out and Xanathol couldn't understand. But thank you for even further clarifying my stance! I don't even have to do my job anymore of defending myself. Others do it obliviously.

5) Read above. And what conversation did we ever have? This is your first reply to me. Anyways, I bid you adieu. Thanks again for strengthening some of my arguments. Greatly appreciated.

I quantify with discs or without so we know a sustained value vs unsustained.

I believe our differences in parses are a result of the content. I am focused on singles in TDS, which are higher cons, a lot more hps, and more ac (and typically not a dps heavy group). My dps is definitely better in a Gribble, but then again, it is even better in Plane of Fire.

My raids are limited to open raids our guild runs, so burn times vary greatly. My mean is typically in the ~35k range as well on burns. As mentioned, I cannot recall ever getting a shammy or bard for procs, etc or even a chanter for spell procs. On a test dummy I can hit higher, but those are perfect circumstances.

You have to used discs+AA to make your sustained, if you are not, your losing out on a ton of dps, there isn't much of a reason to save them. I also stated on current TDS I sustain around 20k, but i think that was with the ranger and with a bard. Solo in TT camping the clickie I was sustaining 15kish.

Ah you stated on burns, which for an sk is 90-120 seconds, after that its all sustain for us.

I find TDS boring, and haven't done much outside progression, someday I'll prob hit it up more.

edit to add: I also want to quantify that dps will go up when your group does more dps, and mine was only with 3 players, my normal group of friends, when we do our prog nights, we can do way more than that as we usually have 5 players, I just don't have access to those parses atm

If you are going to continue to misrepresent statements either purposefully or via competence, then I'm not going to respond to you.

1. I am stating SKs should have more dps. Will that mean while tanking? Yes. SK dps at its best while tanking? No, if for nothing more than shear lack of spell slots. I do believe an SK tanking should do more dps than a Warrior tanking and an SK dpsing should do more dps than a Warrior dpsing. Where the path of a Warrior dpsing and an SK tanking crosses, I do not know.

2. Warriors can tank with a 2her just as well as a knight can. The stance option is to boost your dps further. The balance between a Warrior's sword & shield vs other configurations is between you and the devs.

3. I'm sorry you don't know any Rangers that can tank. That does not mean others do not.

4. Please show me where I argued anything about weapon ratios... I'll wait.

I don't disagree that during normal play, disc, etc should be a part of it - it definitely is a part of mine. But when discussing tuning, I find it easier to know what a base line and max is rather than a average over time of all of them. I'd have to run a combined parse again, but I wouldn't doubt that our dps is probably the same when using said discs over time, minus the presence of a bard - your solo TT number is right at my own, for example.

I'm a late night player, only playing after work and family time (outside of 1-2 raid nights a week), so much of my grouping is boxed, with other or without.

I too find TDS boring, but from experience, devs seem to only ever want to hear about current content, as if past content ceased to exist or something.

He was talking about me with the weapon ratios, because to him a less than 10% ratio difference on class specific weapons is OMG OP!!!!

As to the dps while tanking, depends on what you are tanking. If it is hard content that you acutally need all your stuff for survival and agro, no we should be behind a war because your only gonna have lifetaps, bond, and spear up for dps, and your using those as much for agro + survival as anything.

You should have responded, in current content if no over geared, a knight will not be tanking with a 2h, its not feasible and to risky for the low dps gains.

We play a lot the same then, as my play time/style sound a lot like yours. I don't think we can omit the discs + aa because the dev are going to tune us around those, in both burst and sustained ability. Just like you cannot get a rouge's dps from their auto attack+ backstab, you have to include discs.

Really for that amount of sustained dps in a raid setting you would only be able to do it in a raid situation but lets be realistic none of the tanks are 50% dps of a pure dps . Not for more then 30 secs at least.
If even 25% of that dps transfered to the group game while you are tanking there would be no reason to pick warriors or paladins ever. So there needs to be a more realistic concept thought of. You should not pass us up sustained wise while tanking . When your using your burn discs sure. But not when just doing your normal job. And if you really want that much dps while in a raid setting when not being able to tank at all sure why not you better have to fd every 3 - 4 spells like necros do you also should get 1 rounded from ae ramp while doing that kind of dps and there should be some kinda cooldown that is in place that you must wait for before you can tank. It should have to be a choice because 100k plus sustained dps is going to blow away any dps class still learning and you know how that will work out.

Warriors sustained dps is mostly auto attack and that is one of the things you should not try to take away. That would be treading in on our class power and that is one thing that I do not want to see happen there has been enough class role blurring.

I am pretty sure realistic sustained dps for longer fights is not that High but like I said before I don't look at the dps parses that in depth I look at the healing and tanking parses.

So you, as a tank archetype, want to double wiz merc DPS

Have you even played a DPS class, ever?

Everything you've posted seems like you want Necro-potential DPS, because if you want to slack for numbers like that will do really well when doing things right. So, good luck I guess.

I think it's interesting that you're actually right there with my '1.75' figure when you use your 16k Warrior number (16*1.75=28) which you haven't sourced at all from a support/disc perspective btw. I'd intended to use that number to illustrate how completely unreasonable such a figure would be from a balance perspective for two classes within the same archetype.

DPS aside, I'm more interested in what content this new "not tanking like a Warrior" direction will actually exclude you from tanking, because you're talking about taking a major step backwards in tanking power to justify that level of DPS increase.

True dps classes are lucky to sustain that dps in a group man come on.

Do you even know what sustained dps is it is not 1 fight you must combine multiple fights to find out what sustained dps is. Or it must be a long raid fight to be considered sustained dps.

You do realize that Tearsin already posted logs showing he was one rounded by rampage, and hes a SK, so we already are. and I wouldn't have issue with a cool down the same as stances to have my dps at those levels, were dead as soon as the mob looks at us anyhow if we don't have our tank stuff up and hovering over deflection.

If I use my burns I already pull agro off any war that doesn't know what they are doing and use everything they have to keep it off me, I lose a lot of rounds fd'ing on a raid burn because we don't have a jolt ability or a way to reduce our agro from quick spear other than fd. When we are burning we are usually #2 on the hate list and if we have a 2h on, we are dead if the MT goes down, there is not enough time to switch and deflect before we die anymore. Luckily since TDS has so many adds, that's not an issue, we don't really get to burn anymore or equip the 2h other than the 1 off.

how is auto attack class power? not trying to be mean, or start anything, just very curious about that. I don't know about the others, but when I picked the SK I knew it was a Necro/war hybrid, so yeah, I wanted to do more dps than a war or a pally, but still wanted to tank. I knew the pally was gonna solo better cause of heals (I played well before epic 2.0) and that war was gonna tank better, but I thought I would do more dps. Otherwise I might have rolled a war way back then. I would ask the devs for more things to activate to up your dps next time myself, because all the tanks are falling way to far behind. I will also say that its not all about auto attack, on my war I have a couple buttons I click as they pop up and a couple dps discs that I rotate if not in last stand or need it very soon, and most the time I don't. They just need to expand on that more, and allow good wars to show their dps over the not so good ones. You can certainly tell good vs bad for pal/sk on dps.

If you did any research before picking that class you would of known you were designed to be 20% lower dps then a warrior the baseline dps that every class was balanced around and most likely still is even if the number is inflated.

Auto attack is class power because we are the masters of armed combat and most of our dps comes from auto attack not from discs and not from special abilities.

You were only intended to do dps when you were focusing on that and not tanking and you know that Sojero. And we been trying to get you guys flash of anger which would solve the quick death problem.

Some of us are actually here to help you and focusing on the proper things if people would wake up and realize this game requires balance within the archetypes then it would be a lot easier.

I have been working on things for the warriors for 5 years now that is what I have been doing when I was not completely encapsulated by the game . You know the aggro meter / stances / tons of the special aa we have received in the last 5 years. I have asked for special attack abilities like Wu aa gives from the monks to no gain . Really we are all at the point where new exciting aa's will be slim and far between. Actually my last idea that went with the stances was a special attack for each stance .

The sustained part is the key, it takes ramp up time, on short burns we wouldn't hit near that, nor would you in a group as you don't have the ADPS to do it. I am also talking about the top 5% of players hitting that, not everyone has the ability, gear, and AA. It would also be when we didn't have tanking responsibility and our spell lineup fully devoted to dps, something that rarely ever happens. And even I said that was a bit high, it would have to be tuned properly.


I guess we play with 2 different sets of people then, as my progression group can sustain a good amount. Wiz - 60-80k, bard - 25k, ranger 50k, + mine + cleric merc in a slot then whoever else we add. That is sustained, not burn. for burns mine are as shown 60k+ bards is 50-70k rangers is 80-100k, wiz is 100-200 depending on his tiredness. that is without a shammy, enchanter, or anything else, so very basic adps.

If the fight is not longer then 1 minute then it is not really sustained dps ? You are counting like a 10+ fight combine right ? With no burns included ? And that reply was more for the 26.4 or whatever k Xanathol put out there . At least most people I hang around consider sustain at least 1 minute or more and anyone that has referred to sustained was referring to that kinda time frame . When they say burst they are talking about 1 minute or under.

Lets say this Over 10 fights I feel Warriors should have a higher sustained(or average) dps unless the shadowknight is burning that way we understand each others terminology.

burst is 1 min to 2 min depending on class, burstained is 2-5 mins and sustained is what you can keep up almost indefinitely (group), or in a raid what you can do to be at 0 endo/mana when the mob dies if its longer than 6 mins

Sustained damage doesn't mean "no discs". Sustained damage means the average over the time it takes for discs to refresh, including the disc-boosted time. Multiple such durations, with discs being used as they cycle.

For warriors:
Bash boosts damage every 4 sec,
Topple boosts damage every 12 seconds,
Battle Leap boosts damage every 20sec,
Knee Strike 30sec,
Stormstrike 42sec,
Tormenting Shout every 2min,
Rampage 3min,
Determined Reprisal 5min,
Vehement Rage 7min,
Second Spire 7.5min,
Glyph of the Cataclysm 10min,
Brutal Onslaught Disc 15min,
Heroic Blade 20min
Fellstrike/Mightystrike (shared timer, gotta pick, but one of em every...) 25min.
(aside: I'd love to be told by a warrior who somehow checked if possibly Barbed Tongue every 17:40 is better over the long haul, but it combines with actual nothing it's just a proc, so Fell/Mighty is more attractive)

If a warrior's not tanking, there's Offensive Discipline every 4 min.

Sustained dps for warriors means keeping all those buttons grayed out all the time. It doesn't mean afk auto time only, and it sure doesn't for SK either. You stack the things you can stack, you chain the things that chain, and you autoattack all the time. Going without pushing buttons, including discs, doesn't mean that's your "sustained", it means that you're "bad".

wade into battle > everything that exists in EQ in terms of AE hate, while it's up.
if you even try to argue this you have absolutely no clue what current in-game conditions are like, and i will not reduce myself to engaging with that level of ignorance.

bwaaaaaahahahahahaha... seriously. SERIOUSLY? this is your argument?
congratulations, you had knights tanking as well as wars on content that rangers could tank.
ooooohhhhhh you saw knights doing well in specifically and intentionally undertuned catch-up content, stop the presses.

50% DI reduction for 3 minutes on a 10.5 minute reuse timer is so infinitely better than 36% DI reduction for 2 minutes on a 12 minute timer that even considering your posting history i am surprised you would try and claim otherwise.

psstt... can keep VoT on 2 targets, it's castable on others.
13462 < 17851

no we weren't, we were never close, not even remotely, and you'd have be the victim of fetal alcohol syndrome to honestly believe otherwise.

this DPS derail is incredibly stupid, especially considering how much garbage numbering is being thrown out.

https://forums.station.sony.com/eq/...ght-2h-vs-generic-2h-parse-comparison.218589/

nut up, wars, and post your parses.