How does damage mitigation work?

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Mrjon3s, Oct 28, 2012.

  1. doktartp Augur

    Meant to be should be changed to what was, and was not meant to be, and in turn not fair over time.

    As all 3 classes gained more abilities to mitigate damage (in different ways still) the old ways could not remain intact.

    Tuning has lead the 3 tanks to become closer then ever before, there is no holy trinity, the clerics and chanter is in same boat. This isnt 1999 and your not 16 anymore.
  2. Battleaxe Augur

    Um, knights to achieve near parity in Warrior capabilities in which Warriors should demonstrate superiority while knights maintained superiority in outside the tanking archetype abilities. This isn't Animal Farm and 2 classes having "more equality" (combat self-healing, outside the tank archetype utility, and/or cast damage) than the third isn't exactly right.

    Nevertheless a shield with an AC aug is the only sensible thing to do vs non-trivial content. That advice is posted on Samana's Paladin forums (and echoed by Shiftee), Evil Gamer SK's forums, and TSW. We mitigate damage very much the same ways. Coming anywhere near suggesting that a knight might want to put a mana or sympathetic aug on their shield because they are spellcasters isn't IMO very good advice.
    moogs likes this.
  3. shiftie Augur

    It is actually terrible advice on a thread like this.

    Because this thread IS about how mitigation works and is not about how some outlier sk who is undergeared, under aa'd or w/e chooses to roleplay his SK.

    Someone could ask me how mitigation works and I could answer them by saying that I once wandered through a field and found a frog that looked nice in my primary hand and complimented the look of my armor even more so after I licked it. That has literally nothing to do with how mitigation works and does nothing but distract the conversation away from what is otherwise useful.

    And now when someone searches "how does mitigation work" they will get to read about some level 82 sk who quit 4 years ago and found a LON aug that procs 382 pts of dmg for 0.1% of his total dps that thinks this is a viable option.

    The only time you should put something like that in your shield is if you are playing in an era of EQ that doesn't have AC augs available to fit into the shield. If and only if that LoN ornament is flagged to proc at low levels in which case a level 5 running around casting a 2 damage lifetap is procing a 382 point nuke and death touching all the mobs or something.

    What this person doesn't understand and I'll try to break it down into simple terms everyone can understand.

    If you are tanking 1 mob and it is trivial and you feel compelled to put a dmg aug into your shield. You will always be served by putting an AC aug into your shield maximizing your defensives and pulling a 2nd mob to be fought at the same time. If two mobs is not pushing the envelop and you still are at a point where you are not needing the shield ac keep pulling mobs and adding to the size of the pack you are fighting until you finish the fight and wipe your brow and go whew I'm glad I got that ac aug in my shield for max rAC return.

    That will hold true until you get to higher levels where the mobs HP and dps will be too high to tank multiple mobs at once and also at a point where the ratio of your weapons 1her vs 2her along with your AA will result in single combat encounters where you will pop out the 2her.

    A nearly unparsable difference of a sympathetic proc in your shield vs rAC is not something you should be suggesting to anyone. In the case of the guy suggesting it he is using a jumping axe which means he is around level 80. If he is in a position where he either doesn't want to tank multiple mobs at once or finds that single mob combat needs the extra .1% dps he would find himself better suited to use the AC aug and either pull more mobs or ditch the healer merc and get out a dps merc and self heal.

    this conversation is nonsense. AC aug or go home, literally.
    moogs, Elricvonclief and roth like this.
  4. Smak Augur

    I find it hilarious that time after time the same rhetoric is repeated. Yes i know ac aug in a shield is good for mititgating damage in hard fights.

    All i pointed out was that lately i have been using the fallen dragon ornament aug in shield because it adds free dps that can trigger from every damage proc or spell i cast, and it stacks with the ornament on the bow.

    As to those who say use a 2h or dual wield if you are dps. Im an sk so i cant dual wield, and the best 2h i have is less damage than the jumping axe i picked up recently. I hit for about the same with my 1hander as i do with my 2.0 that has 14 damage augged into it.

    So when using the fallen dragon ornament shield all the base ac is bonus compared to what i would have with any 2h weapon, even if i did have a better dps 2h.

    The role of the tank may be to survive when getting hit, but getting hit in the first place is just as important, if not more important. So any way you can gain more aggro and or dps, is good.

    FYI i have a second shield with an ac aug in it for tankin harder stuff.
  5. shiftie Augur

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  6. WarSheol Augur

    Please start a new thread if you want to talk about DPS as 2 of the 3 tanks are Not dps...

    Thanks :cool:

    And the reason we got on the AC aug to begin with was because a tanks shield is a tanks best friend that and SS/ISS ect but any way point being as you rais your AC you are hit for less because the higher ammounts of AC help you get hit for less aka mitigate :cool: this effect is much greater in classes that wear plate by design.

    Any more question about Mitigation?
  7. VorAbaddon New Member

    God, I can't believe I'm getting into this again. I swore I never would after dealing with Battleblade too often. Anyhoo:

    So, what you're saying Smak is you aug'd out a shield in a very peculiar way to add a small amount of DPS because your DPS weapon doesn't pack enough oomf to overcome that?

    I have my doubts in a very severe way that you parsed this out, BUT... even presuming it's accurate, it belies the question of why you don't then make it a priority to obtain a better 2hander? Group content these days alone provides workable loot.

    I'll simplify this for you:

    If the mob is not difficult enough that tanking is trivial and you are prioritizing DPS: Get a decent 2hander.
    If the mob is difficult enough to prioritize survivability: Sword and Board, with the board maximized for tanking.

    To speak to everyone overall: Mitigation's importance cannot be understated because your survivability is about resource management. Unless a fight is trivial, it will take resources (heals) to overcome the outflow of your lifespan (health). The slower and steadier that outflow, the less resources generally have to be expended to keep you from dying, and this can, at times, free up resources that can go elsewhere. I used to spend time with Shammie healers who loved me because I was an AC nut, and while I was tanking they could toss in the odd DoT or other effect which made it a bit for fun for them. Why were they free to do that? Because my mitigation wasn't just to the point of survivability, but beyond that to the point of a feeling of confidence and safety in tanking.

    That's the point you want to aim for.
  8. Elricvonclief Augur

    I agree Vor. I always sword and board when tanking, as the easier to heal the tank is, the more options it opens up for the group healer.
    moogs likes this.
  9. Smak Augur

    The 2hander i have is 2.0 with a couple 7 damage augs in it, the 1handers i use have higher damage and better ratios along with procs.

    I am considering getting a crafted 2hb with cultural aug in it, or the sk 2hander from brells rest that costs 50 gold tokens, or a dreamslicer or pendulum bob from hot raids.

    But for dps right now using a 1hander and a shield with a sympathetic proc ads more dps, and it also allows me to use the shield with its base ac for better mitigation if i do pull aggro.

    I have a seperate shield with an ac aug in it for tanking red cons.

    I do have a bone hafted maul, if i chose to level up some i can use it, but right now im staying 81 to max out aa.

    i buff to around 45k hp and 5700ac at 81, with just group gear and augs.

    Im not debating the value of ac on a shield, or using an ac aug for tanking, but if the mobs im fighting are blue, or light blue or less, using an aug that adds dps makes sense to me, and that is all that counts in my book.

    I was just letting others know there is an aug for shield that can add over 300 damage to any damage proc or damage spell cast. And that is much better than any normal proc aug.
  10. Moklianne Augur

    How much damage does Shield Spec add? Does it get close enough where there isn't a whole lot of dps benefit from a 2 hander anymore? And at that point, it would be better to keep the sword and board on all the time for the extra mitigation? Just curious if comparison's have been parsed out. Considering roughly equivalent 1h vs 2h's, tier-wise.
  11. Dre. Augur

  12. shiftie Augur

    knight shield specialist is 25%

    so a weapon with 221 dmg 34 dly becomes (221*.25)+221/34 = 276/34 or a ratio of 8.1

    a 2her from the equivalent tier 298/36 or a ratio of 8.3 rounded up

    And this isn't factoring augs or elemental damage or w/e...

    The big difference in parsing is going to come from the fact that Knights also get "speed of the knight" which grants an additional attack with a 2her equipped and we have 18 ranks of it (offhand I don't recall the actual numbers).

    And then you have to factor in Damage bonus (25 v 89) and various other factors. You could go sword and board at all times and there was an era (SoD) where the 1her was more dps but then they adjusted all 2her ratios upward in UF.

    The long of the short - if you want to dps you use a 2her as it provides the most dps, especially on a burn where many things factor in to favor the 2her.

    If you are leveling up a new toon and don't have money for both, going with the 1her aa's will give you more return on your investment b/c you will be focusing your AA efforts and combining both offense and defense into 1 setup. You can keep that up until you have enough AA to start spreading them into the 2her aa and enough cash to purchase one or time to camp one.
    Moklianne and Elricvonclief like this.
  13. Abazzagorath Augur

    Equivalent tier weapons post SoD you definitely will do more dps with a 2her, but also keep in mind that if you are swarming, you have to factor in survivability and how that changes with increasing numbers of mobs, and therefore how it affects your cumulative dps due to riposte.

    I know that as a paladin, swarming, I get more experience using 1h/shield than 2her, because I pull enough additional mobs that the dps lost from smaller ripostes is made up from more ripostes (and fewer/arger pulls means higher kill/time ratio). That's going to vary by level and content though, because if you only have 40 mobs in an area, and can pull all 40 and tank them with a 2her, then obviously it just slows you down to use a 1h/shield.
  14. Smak Augur

    At the time, i didnt feel like shelling out 45k for an attunable weapon. It was highly desired by the sk twinks of bertox, who i think only leveled an sk just to experience swarming.

    I would rather use a 1hander until i can get the gold tokens for the brells 2hander, or find a 2hander in hot raids.
  15. Dre. Augur

    5k right now on /baz on Bertox.
  16. Smak Augur

    Im sure it is by now, that price was before the last expansion was released, i can only imagine that most sks have leveled beyond the use of the hammer in order to stay within instance range of the max level player.

    And im not currently playing on bertox.
  17. Gladare Augur

    I think this whole thread should be cut off at and including Smak's first post.
    And maybe add:
    "You either need the shield to tank or you don't. Putting a dps aug into a shield is counterintuitive to the logic behind equipping a shield in the first place.

    Proc DPS especially on a shield? I mean c'mon let's be real here. The words shouldn't even be in the same sentence.

    At no point should anyone ever be instructed to do this. Not even with multiple shields. If someone wants to roleplay this or just feels like doing it sure. But the entire conversation is a distraction from the relevant & useful information in this thread"
    Elricvonclief likes this.
  18. Uxtalzon Augur

    There are even some rare AC augs that fit into one-handers that might be worth looking into. This game, for tanks, is all about AC, HP, and keeping aggro.

    You can learn specifics and raw data on defensives, AC, AAs.... but it's better to just grind out those AAs and get everything instead.
  19. Elricvonclief Augur

    Aye, most of the knights I know use AC augs in their 1handers. Remember, we use spells for agro, and others do the dps.
  20. Anuulified Elder

    /Agree's with Elric, either AC auggy or Rune aug, cuz we can :)