Guildes are going to be the worst in this TLP and here is why.

It is the truth so I will just blart it out...

All of that juicy no drop loot that the inner circles normally didn't care much about before will now be available to sell or give to their alts.

You can be sure the rules will bend this time around even more skewed towards alts aka "second mains" "raid alts" or what ever label is used to try and make them easier to swallow.

All that sweet juicy loot going to pleb randos in their guilds drive them crazy!!

It will not matter that the plebs are the reason the bosses are downed and the loot drops. The inner circles will not think like this.

Be very careful about which raid guild you join this time around.

Scrutinize the loot rules.

Hold them accountable.

Mark my words.

I appreciate that you reposted this thread after it got deleted with the same titlegore.

New theory. Mark = MMOer

I feel like I have seen this thread before. Are you expecting different response this time around?

In my experience, 95% of the doom and gloom people infer about these new TLPs never happens or happens in such small amounts to be statistically insignificant. The login server is about the only warning that comes true in spades.

If you join and remain in a guild where you're taken advantage of, you deserve what you get, IMHO.

The top few guilds are always like this on every TLP. Changing the loot rules won't change the motivations for these players, it's just easier now.

Like Faceless Virtue I bet Zaide and the rest of their leadership is looking to make tons of plat/Krono off of his guildmates.

Kinda the whole point of GDKP isn't it?

I'm willing to concede that many of the "classic" models of raid loot management might not work as well here as they would on a traditional TLP, but GDKP just seems like a way to fleece members who aren't on their toes or aren't willing to buck the management. I don't have any firsthand experience with it, so I'm not going on a tirade here, but the fact that it's being so roundly endorsed elsewhere on these boards makes me wonder if a bunch of folks aren't about to be taken for a ride. [It also makes me wonder whether a bunch of the praises are sock-puppets, but that's neither here nor there.]

Fair concerns tbh. In the 10 seconds I considered making a guild before my senses returned the only other alternative would be something that would be a nightmare to try to police, free trade is just going to bring out a lot of degeneracy for the first 3-4 expacs until everything settles in. I couldn't imagine trying to run a traditional DKP guild with that extra headache.

I do think that there are a lot of people joining into gdkp not fully understanding that they don't get some medal or loot incentive for showing up 100% of the time, they still have to be able to pay higher than everyone else that wants to wear it or to try to resell it in commons. They will get more plat/krono which might allow them to buy items they want further down the line but it's kind of a balancing act that a lot of people coming from traditional DKP and no trade are probably not used to.

Need everything, settle it in commons.

When every single item is openly bid and the money split, the only way to be fleeced is if nobody bothers to check math. It should be fairly obvious to prove if someone withholds money from the split. It's hard to think of a system LESS prone to corruption than a front facing bid loot one.

Yeah, anyone talking about corrupt is silly, but because of arbitrage terrible behavior will be the real problem. You're not bidding against just your guild for that BoC, you need to bid so much that no one in your guild thinks they can sell it for more in the commons because if so they should have just outbid you and sold it there. You're effectively bidding against the entire servers market prices.

sounds like projection to me. if your guild doesn't gear up you won't beat later content and won't get the newest loot. will it happen? sure, but I doubt to the extent you're implying.

I don't think that math will be as cut and dry as it might appear. Because the splits are theoretically happening at the time of distribution, there's some room for hanky-panky when you start trying to incorporate attendance issues (e.g., Bob has a hard out at 1 AM, he showed up for the first two wipes, was there for the kill, bid on one item and then dropped before the split--sounds like an edge case, but God knows we've all been to at least one raid with weird @*#$ like this going on). Did everyone get paid who was supposed to get paid? Did everyone get paid the amount they were supposed to? What do you do when you've got multiple currencies floating around? --Again, not experienced with this stuff; I'm absolutely confident that all of these questions have clear, rational answers that can be implemented by a savvy guild leadership team that's good at accounting for contingencies.

But then that team isn't the one to watch, is it? If you take a less scrupulous leadership that plays a little fast and loose with things, you start seeing issues with splits not happening on time, or splits having "rounding issues" that result in extra cash going into someone's pocket.

But again, edge cases, right? If you look out for yourself you can keep from being taken advantage of as long as you're willing to stand up and call attention whenever something isn't above board, as with any loot issues.

This is the worse issue for me. Arbitrage on Mischief will be an industry, and you will absolutely be punished for not being able to judge the market. After Luclin that gets easier, but the tunnel is not only cutthroat but utterly opaque, and you can lose your shirt if you make a bad judgment on how to value an item for resale. On top of that, GDKP and other buy-in systems like it have a real world cash barrier to entry if you intend to actually bid. Of course, this is easy to avoid--don't bid, right? Show up and collect your salary, then take it to the tunnel. This is the safest bet for people like me who intend to raid but will gladly admit we're not willing to put in the monitoring work to keep up with the market--but it also means we're not competent to ensure items in the raid loot are going for their fair market value. Hopefully someone else in the raid is, but if competition wavers (or if other raiders are colluding, which is extremely likely with a tight-knit core group), the consequences are the enrichment of those who best can collate and control information rather than those who can best contribute to the raid's success.

It's not fundamentally unfair, but it's extremely perilous, just like any other market undertaking, and more importantly it's new to many or most of us.

To reiterate--not a complaint, and not a value judgment. No system is perfect.

I just think it carries a lot of risk. Maybe the risk is unavoidable on this kind of server, but it's going to be a hell of a show.

We can't even get any quality trolls these days...literally no one believes this. Not even a little. Try harder.

How is this any different then normal DKP?

Dkp has no inherent value, if you somehow got missed in a tick the officer in charge can magically apply it for you, once the plat/krono split goes out someone either doesn't get paid or the guild pays out of the bank. The best way to do a system like this would be to track it all on a spreadsheet and then give a grace period for disputes before the splits go out to ensure you've made all the ticks you should have. Delays running to the tunnel immediately after raid to buy I guess but gives people time to ensure they are getting what they should.

No idea all the names over there this time, besides Zaide - who definitely isn't that type - but there's definitely been some folks that USED to be associated with both halves with that blemish. Perhaps they've been culled from the typical ranks in the years since I've been involved with either, though - but regardless, it's a difficult problem to avoid with such systems.

Could be fine with plenty of trustworthy people, could go to with a lack of trustworthy folks, as will be the same with any other system. Except in this case more abusable, since for example someone with a 200kr starting bank walking into the server will have a huge advantage over another person who makes many times the effort of someone starting from square one - where they could theoretically buy everything on a night, to just turn around and sell it for a profit in Commons an hour later, leading to a wasted raid night for the guild itself.

Other more typical systems will prevent such for for quite a while (theoretically, potentially eternally if monitored well enough for decay/pricing bounds/etc).

If your loot system can't handle this "edge case" it is too complicated. Every now and then, human judgment has to come into the decision making.

Every guild in the history of Everquest since 2000 when dkp was invented has had to deal with this. There are always multiple currencies floating around. They tend to equalize themselves. DKP = an ever adjusting amount of plat = etc etc etc. The only time it gets weird is in TBS.

IF you are at all concerned about this, find a new guild (on a new server if necessary) where this isn't happening. Not all guilds play fast and loose with things.

Believe it or not, there are guilds that aren't padding the guild leader or officers' pockets.

If your number one concern on loot is "looking out for yourself" you've already missed the point. Guilds succeed when they look out for each other.

How is that any different the a guild GDKP?