Grumpy Tanks

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Dilquan, Jul 9, 2021.

  1. Niskin Clockwork Arguer

    I'm quoting these in reverse order because one kind of answers the other. Bouncing aggro around can be annoying for a healer, but it can also mean the difference between the tank going down, or a few entities being at 80% health simultaneously. Too many tanks think they can tank anything, they can't, so it's stupid to think that. Keep pulling and dropping mobs on the tank, eventually the healers won't be able to keep up. A dead tank when tanking multiple mobs will equal a dead group almost every time. Wasted mana or lowered DPS just means a little lost time, nowhere near as bad.

    A tank's first job may be to keep everyone else alive, but their second job is to keep themselves alive, or they will screw up the first job anyway. Know what you can handle, know what tricks you have and when they are running out. When that is happening, make adjustments, ask for help. People will think you are a crappy tank because the group keeps wiping, not because you couldn't tank 14 mobs at once.
  2. Svann2 The Magnificent

    If its a noob tank thats learning the ropes and/or still undergeared sure. Be nice about it.
    The real Sandaormo likes this.
  3. Bigstomp Augur

    In a group, sure. Tanks and others work together on how to make their group successful.
    In a raid, (generally) you have a bunch of tanks. There are exceptions but generally a pet taunting is a detriment.

    There are always exceptions of course.
    The real Sandaormo likes this.
  4. Vumad Augur

    I have a saying as a Chanter...

    I don't get mad. I Stasis.

    You break my mez, it's your mob. Obviously there are mistakes made but anyone breaking my mezes repeatedly gets to take ownership of the mob. I'll try to correct the issue but if you don't want to learn then you can die. I box the cleric and I'm not interested in dealing with that.

    Everyone should have an in game audio trigger for "has been awoken by <your name here>"

    I support the same attitude of tanks. "You Gank it you Tank it." Manage your aggro. I get pet taunt because we forget to turn it off after soloing but it's a one time occurrence and then it is fixed.

    I thought that too, until I asked why the SK couldn't have aggro. Apparently the Ranger's "Summer" line is crazy aggro. It was compared to taunt to explain the problem to me. I'm glad someone took the time to help Ranger me understand why I was ganking aggro and correct my spell usage. I only moonlight as a ranger, and have limited knowledge of the class.
  5. Axel Furry Hats OP


    DPS pulls aggro, if the tank can pull it back, they should. If the DPS dies, then the healer has to rez the DPS, taking heals off the tank and oh look, the tank died because he wasn't getting healed, then the healer gets aggro, and the rest of the DPS die just because the tank was too egotistical to swallow their pride and take aggro back because "you gank it, you tank it". If a DPS pulls aggro off of you, get better, pull the mob back. Don't be stuck in the mindset that you can't get it back, get better. Improve. Every tank has the capability to keep aggro off of DPS at least 90% of the time in almost any scenario and with the right cooldown placements can live through just about any pull. Even if that means they have to use a dragon glyph or a glyph of aggro to maintain aggro.

    Swallow your pride, get better, don't let DPS take aggro. Getting frustrated because you lost aggro is just getting frustrated at yourself. SKs use Voice of Thule or Touch of Zlandicar for extra aggro mods, paladins cast Marr's Salvation on your group, Warriors get 500 different aggro mods. Use them, if they aren't on cooldown you're already messing up.

    Ranger's Summer line is decent at aggro, but it's not that much compared to an SK's aggro. Summer's Sleet is less than 20k Aggro per cast (10k DD + 9.4k DD + 696 aggro then subract whatever hate reducing effects they get). Compare that to an SK's terror, which is about 30k aggro per cast (19k hate base + 25% aggro mask + 20% Touch of Zlandicar mod + 50% bold attacks). If a ranger is pulling aggro off of you, you just simply aren't casting your spells. Every tool in an SK's aggro kit is better than Summer's in terms of aggro. Explosion of Spite/Hatred/Stream all 20k base AE aggro (should be used on single target), Hate's Attraction 25k Aggro, Insidious Rejection ~16k base AE aggro, Abhorrent Bargain 36k base AE aggro. 0 reason to lose aggro to a ranger. Just cast more.

    Tl;Dr: You gank it, you tank it = I'm lazy and unwilling to even consider the thought of getting better and would rather wipe and blame someone else instead of learning.
    Sancus, Ssdar, Fenthen and 3 others like this.
  6. Vumad Augur

    Here's the fun in quoting and context. You removed the most import part of my post.

    See, I quite clearly believe in understanding an issue and helping people learn how to be better. You chose to remove that part from quoting me so that you can attack the idea that people need to be personally responsible for their actions. There comes a point where your unwillingness to learn threatens the group as a whole.

    The exact same thing can be said about DPS not trying to get better at managing aggro. You don't get to just blame the tank. You don't just get to wipe the group. Stealing aggro, breaking a mez, not using the right cures, pulling trains. It's all the same concept.

    ALL players in the group need to be skilled and knowledgeable in their class. Not just puller, CC, tank and healer. The DPS also needs to be skilled. DPS that isn't close to stealing aggro is slacking and needs to work on their skills. DPS that is stealing aggro and needs to work on their skills.

    Blaming the tank = I'm lazy and unwilling to even consider the thought of getting better and would rather wipe and blame someone else instead of learning.

    And fine all on all the summer's numbers you gave, I don't pretend to know a lot about being a ranger or a SK, but I know I can easily pull aggro from skilled tanks on my CLR, RNG and MAG with irresponsible play and poor communication. I am not going to blame the tank for my poor play. I'm going to ask what I can do to be better. And hey, maybe the SK I was with when I was using Summer's was a bad SK, but when I asked some very talented rangers about it, they immediately said, are you using Summer's? Your numbers themselves are fine, but I was using summer's in combination with a LOT of other things, and that concoction was was using was much more likely a me problem than the SK. What if it was a soft SK who was casting a lot of taps to stay alive at the cost of aggro? He can't fake his AC but I can adjust my casts to compensate. We are a team.
    Metanis and Tatanka like this.
  7. Axel Furry Hats OP

    Aggro management isn't a DPS's job and all tanks have the capability of keeping aggro off of a fully burning DPS. Unless the DPS is taunting, the tank *shouldn't* have a problem. That said, DPS has fade abilities and fading when you pull aggro at the cost of DPS is better than dying. Breaking mez is dumb, but mezzing in the first place can also be dumb. When I tank, I break all mezzes using AE aggro abilities, more Ripo damage=more DPS=mobs die faster=I take less damage. When I play my DPS, following MA (usually main tank) I shouldn't ever pull aggro. If I don't assist the tank, yeah, I have a higher chance of pulling aggro, but I also click my survivability stuff to survive. If I have defensives up, then pulling aggro when I play DPS is no biggie. Not disagreeing that DPS shouldn't watch their aggro and play well, and it's not always the tanks fault, but if you pull aggro and the tank can survive it and is just too egotistical to hit taunt and instead says "you gank it you tank it" there's a problem.

    Also SKs, thanks to Cascading Theft of Defense, can aggro & uber tank at the same time. Casting taps while SK epic is going is less HP/S than swinging with a 2hander and even less HP/S than swinging with a 1hander without casting spells. Instant cast spells (like terrors) don't stop you from swinging & proc Cascading Theft of Defense, 125k melee rune. Super OP.
  8. Strawberry Augur

    The tank nor healer has any idea how much your pet can take. When your pet dies, that loose mob will take out the rest of the group. You are far more likely to mess everything up than help.

    By not assisting the tank, you are also not focusing your DPS but spreading it out over multiple mobs which puts extra pressure on the healer and tank. All the tank and healer want is for the group to focus all burn DPS on that first mob to relieve some pressure on them.

    Tanks and healers have enough "OH ****!" abilities that they can stabilize and take 3 mobs at a time, without a pet class trying to be a hero.

    "I'll offtank this one" is the last thing healers and tanks want to hear, especially when the offtank is a pet that the healer can't easily target. It ends up in chaos way more than simply letting a tank AE aggro the 3 mobs while using his defensive abilities and the group burning each mob down.

    In today's game tanks have so many defensive abilities and activated AA that can completely negate or greatly mitigate damage for 30 seconds or more. When classes are played correctly, there is no scenario that you can present to me where you offtanking a mob with a pet instead of focusing your DPS by assisting the tank, would be helpful in any way.
    Ssdar and code-zero like this.
  9. Cannikin Elder

    I normally don't like "git gud" arguments, but I'm a "casual" raider, tanking a fair number of open raids and occasionally for a high end raid guild, and these days the only ones I ever see steal aggro from me are other tanks, even on mega burns. DPS only get hit briefly during aggro swap situations: mem blur, previous tank dies/banished, etc. I don't particularly try hard either, just hitting buttons as they come up.

    Players who leave pet taunt on can die in a fire, though. :mad:

    In group situations I find just 1 or 2 aggro abilities on incoming, and then just auto-attack and riposte with dual warrior weapons with rune proc augs is enough to keep aggro indefinitely on any number of mobs, provided they're assisting on my target.
    Axel and code-zero like this.
  10. Svann2 The Magnificent

    It is.
    Vumad, Hellowhatsyourname and Conq like this.
  11. Nennius Curmudgeon

    Actually, to one degree or another, it's everyone's job.
  12. Axel Furry Hats OP

    This, tank aggro is OP. Just a few abilities will hold aggro off any DPS no matter what situation.

    See above. Just press tank buttons. Hard to take aggro.

    See above.

    As a tank, I purposely tell DPS "Full burn everything, try to pull aggro, I'll hold aggro". The only thing that is hard to keep aggro off of is beastlords, but honestly, the mobs die so fast when everyone is full burning that it doesn't matter. Back when I started tanking, it was hard. Now DPS has to press taunt if they want to gank aggro from me. I'll use my 20 minute cooldowns to hold aggro, because I know that if they are pulling aggro, they are also using 20 minute cooldowns, so by the time they can attempt to pull aggro again, I can just yoink it right back.

    Groups are really boring if people are playing passively and I don't have to try at all to hold aggro. If DPS is stealing aggro, it's 100% on the tank. It's really not that hard to hold aggro and I play all 3 tanks. I don't necessarily think this is a "git gud" scenario, more like a learning thing. Can't hold aggro? Read your abilities and use them.
  13. Bigstomp Augur

    For me this seems to depend on how mobs come into camp. A steady fast stream of 1 at a time, I struggle as buttons are down at times.
    Bring in 5 at once, I have time to build some extra ae aggro so when we switch to mob 2 I've got a little buffer so I'm not starting from scratch with buttons possibly down from mob 1.

    Of course when I'm in a group that is killing that fast, I sometimes wonder if the dps are just keeping me around in case we run into a named.
    code-zero and Tucoh like this.
  14. Flatchy Court Jester

    Axel for you to speak like that makes me think you just started the game. You say a tank must learn and use ALL his skills to be a top tank. I sir say you must do the same. To be the best learn all of your skills and use them. Sorry you just sound lazy and sounds like you just want everyone to pave your way to top of the DPS charts.

    But go on.
    Ozon and Svann2 like this.
  15. Hellowhatsyourname Augur

    "Shouldn't" is a dangerous word. The fact is, most DPS classes, if not paying attention or poorly played, have the ability to make agro management more difficult for even the best tanks. When we were running Crusaders group missions after raids I would often join a guild group of 3 monks + whoever. I could reliably tank the first mob straight through, but invariably the monks would all be in full burn mode when we hit the 2nd dragon and agro would bounce. A monk in full burn mode who doesn't give the tank a couple of seconds to set agro WILL be tanking (at least part of the time) that mob. For us it didn't matter because we're all overgeared for group content, but if you're not raid geared its splatty splat time for that DPS and it was entirely your (the dps) fault.
  16. Axel Furry Hats OP

    Ssdar likes this.
  17. Dilquan Elder

    I hear it during just everyday grouping stuff. If my mage pet takes aggro, maybe taunt harder?
  18. Conq Augur

    If your mage pet takes aggro, I move on to the next mob, your pet can have it. And unless this mage and it's pet is doing 300k+ sustained dps, I'll move on from that mage too, next time. There are 1000 ways pet aggro screws up every damn thing (mob placement, dps, healing, etc etc). There are 0 reasons to group with someone who cannot or will not control their pet(s). Not grumpy, just driven to get things done. But I only play at being a tank when I'm not clericing.
    Axel likes this.
  19. chungus New Member

    Wish I had the option to group with tanks like this guy more, I play DPS I am always burning at the second my abilities come back and trying to kill everything as quickly as possible. Usually though I get whiny people who lose agro for a few seconds then send me tells and try to talk to me on discord about it, and so I leveled up my own tank, a pally at that (cause apparently they are the worst), and realized how easy it is to hold agro to just about every class except for a few moments here and there when beasts, monks, or rangers are burning. Even then, I don't care, stuff still dies fast. Yeah I hit like 3-4 buttons 95 percent of the time nobody is getting agro from me.
    Ssdar, Axel and menown like this.
  20. Strohs the Pedantic New Member

    Why is this a discussion? As a wizard the clerics simply tell me that I resisted their heal...