GMM risk vs reward out of whack? mobs need tuning up

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Gingadin, Mar 16, 2019.

  1. Kolani Augur

    Update: I died in the GMM heroic. I got a little too happy, pulled a bunch of wereorcs on the loading platform and got stunned. By the time it wore off, I couldn't recover.
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  2. Tucoh Augur

    I'd be like auto-grant for AA if auto-grant gave you all the AAs for your general and archetype AAs up to the latest expansion, since you still need to farm some slots in TBL.
  3. Natal Augur

    EoK HAs don't drop armor, other than the nameds in them, but those only spawn about 10% of the time, so using them as a benchmark for risk v reward is misleading (they basically have no real reward). Also, your memory serves you poorly. EoK HA mobs (when they were current content) were significantly more challenging than GMM HA mobs. I certainly could not tank 11 at a time without a disc back then even though I had a full set of the previous expansions raid gear, the most I could do at once was about 6-7 and even then I would need a disc to survive a pull that size.

    In Darkness Howls on waves 2, 3 and 4 I just park directly in front of their pathing route and allow them to pile up on my tank. Once they are all there I move my rogue behind them and engage with him and the merc rogue. That is 9 mobs on wave 2, and 11 mobs each on waves 3 and 4. The only wave that gets a bit sketchy in survivability is wave 3 for some reason, so I use defensive on that wave for efficiency. It is not necessary at all on the other waves. No other CC is used beyond face tanking. The whole mission takes about 30 minutes, that is with my warrior/rogue/shaman and their mercs. With proper independent players you could likely do the mission a lot faster.

    Gear wise my warrior has RoS raid armor in all slots, but a lot of those are phlogiston, which is basically the same as TBL group gear other than foci. So there is no reason why any group tank could not do the same, especially if they are grouped with real players rather than a bunch of boxed alts and mercs. As soon as you use any sort of CC, or splitting of smaller numbers of the waves, the resource requirement plummets. Wave 3 seems to put out a bit more dps than the other waves, but unless you specifically try to tank all of them at once you are not likely to have more than 3 or 4 at most, due to the way they move around.

    If you are in any sort of group and can't wreck this HA, frankly, you are incompetent. It is that easy.
  4. Inga Elder

    So I used Bi`faak as benchmark, far easier than any HA. Usually, group gears are not so difficult to get in any expansion. There are many tradable gears/currency and 1-3 group geared players are enough for many nameds. Most BiS group gears will become obsolete as soon as next expansion is released, and it is fine. Group game is for many players, including casual and returned people.

    It is meaningless to compare previous expansion raid gears and current expansion group gears. In ANY expansion, the quality of gear is determined by the Mob Power in that expansion, and the gap between raid and group gears within that expansion doesn't change. The only difference in Mob Power Inflation expansion is that previous expansion gears lose more power.

    So, actually Mob Power Inflation is beneficial for hardcore players who love challenging contents, especially for raiding players, as their previous expansion items lose more power. However, it is potentially detrimental for casual players.

    If mercenaries are fine in Mob Power Inflation expansion, it means they are overpowered in previous expansion. It does not, and should not happen, so mercenary upgrade is mandatory. In addition to it, Mob Power Inflation expansion is challenging for hardcore players means it is very hard for casual players. So in Mob Power Inflation expansions, new group items must be obtainable easily, just like Bi`faak. If these problems are not solved properly, it will become nightmare for casual players, and it became in TBL. The Darkness Howls is probably implemented to negate these mistakes, so it is fine as it is.

    Anyway, it doesn't solve the biggest mistake in TBL. Everquest is group game, so any artificial barrier that prevent players from grouping is bad. Heavily locked zones behind hard progression is the worst mechanics in Everquest, but they didn't learn it from TDS, which is still locked right now. For casual players, all their efforts put into new zones, quests, and items are in vain, as they will never see them. The Burning Lands, or Stratos the Single Zone is the worst expansion for casual players.
    Corwyhn Lionheart likes this.
  5. Cicelee Augur

    I am just curious. When was the last time a group of six casual players tried a Plane of Smoke trial? Yesterday? Last week? Last month?

    Or did these six casuals try on Day 4 of expansion release, wiped twice, decided it was way too hard for them, saw other casual friends also wipe twice and complain, then came to the forums and saw a thread about how difficult the expansion is and felt validated in their assumption that Plane of Smoke trials would always and forever be too difficult for them?
    Tour and Tucoh like this.
  6. Qbert Gallifreyan

    I don't know your answer to the Smoke Trial question in general (I beat two within the first couple of weeks, realized I was unlikely to ever beat the remaining three based on their mechanics, and passed on them until the next level raise). However, I can say that I still try the Cactus group mission at least monthly and I have yet to beat it (much like Smoke, I anticipate having a better chance at success with the next level raise). To put that in context, I have completed all of group portions of TBL except the last two missions and those three Smoke missions (and conquests, as those in many cases are dps-oriented, which I cannot succeed at), and all of RoS but the missions (and VP, since I can't get in).

    I think the biggest head-scratcher for me is that so much time and energy is put into the development of some of this generally overtuned content (to include all of the new so-called chase items and their reliance on RoS completion) without the realization that end-game raiders, their similarly-geared alts and people who rely on third party programs to play a significant portion of the game on their behalf do not make up the majority of the player base.

    Gnome Mountain to me feels like a well done group-centric zone. A few of the named mechanics are a bit wild, but not out of bounds. I have completed GMM hunter/quests/missions (less #3 until the next patch, presumably) and am still trying for one last collectible there . . . but it doesn't feel like half the chore that TBL is; just running around in TBL is a hassle (based on a combination of zone lock mechanics and zone geography).
    Yinla and Yendar like this.
  7. Liin Edud (Tunare) Augur

    I guess I'm not sure what the definition of a casual is anymore . We are a guild of maybe 15 active characters which includes alts and boxes. We don't raid and other than a friend of the guild filling an open spot we don't really group with anyone else. We're geared in mostly GMM, TBL T2 and T3 gear with some EoK chase still hanging around. I'm not sure if we count as casual or not.

    We have completed all of the Smoke trials prior to GMM being released including Ashes of Rusted Cliff's Glory. I would suspect the upgrades from GMM in terms of weapons and non-visibles would make the missions less difficult.

    Are the Smoke trials difficult and challenging? Sure. Did I hate them? Not really. Someone earlier in the thread asked if anyone actually enjoyed Ashes and I'll say I did but only after we beat it. Ashes was certainly frustrating the first 6-8 times we did it but after you learn the mechanics and plan accordingly its just an endurance fight that requires some good backup healing.
  8. SubEffect An Original Lord of Fizzle and Whiff

    I don't mind most of the trials, but Ashes can be disheartening and it seems to demand some specific group compositions. I agree that beating it was a huge rush and _almost_ worth the wait.

    If I have any complaint about the trials, it's that they are up front, in the beginning and block off most of the expansion for some people. To this day we've got guild folks (also a small guild) without 100% completion, requiring them to do a trial here and there just to see what's beyond it. As a result, we don't do much as a guild within TBL except for some missions. Sure, we can use campfires and such, or just do a trial each week, but that's annoying. To my earlier comment, if your guild doesn't have the right tools (re: melee dps), you can be out of luck, and I'll be honest in saying Ashes isn't a trial I'd want to spend an evening doing with strangers (I've spent many nights trying it with people I know and trust, which is enough for me).
    Corwyhn Lionheart and Spellfire like this.
  9. Liin Edud (Tunare) Augur

    I've always enjoyed accomplishing things with who was online instead of stacking the deck for a perfect mix and then the one necro in the guild or the 3rd tank is left behind.

    The last time I went through Ashes I'm pretty sure the group make up was 6 110s - warrior, SK, paladin, cleric, shaman (me) and a wizard. No where near balanced or ideal but we just slogged through it.

    Some of the TBL missions are much easier with more DPS but all of them can be beaten with a decent tank, some backup healing and a quick study of the mechanics. I honestly would avoid Amphitheater before I'd avoid Ashes.
  10. Cadira Augur

    Ashes "only" sucks because of the stun the boss does. Or the damage produced by it. If you eliminated either one, or slimmed both of them down, it'd be a cake walk.

    One thing you can do to help is have your healer make a gina for the stun. It happens every 30's from the boss starting it up. As soon as your timer gets close to 30s, start casting a large group heal that will land mid stun. Group heal, at least for clerics, has a fairly long cast time, helping insure it lands shortly after the ae lands, heals then entire group, and is a big heal. Since we have aas that give us a great chance to continue casting through stun this will almost always land and ensure your tank and dps live until your not stunned and can pick up regular healing again. Sucks if your tank takes a bad round as you are casting the group heal as this combined with the ae can easily kill a group geared tank.
  11. Kolani Augur

    *coughs* Healer mercs aren't affected by the stun in Ashes.
  12. Daedly Augur

    You are still struggling with the Cactus mission? What is your group make up?
  13. Aelen Augur

    Some comments for Ash trial:

    Line of Sight blocks the stun.

    Line of Sight does not block healing.

    Priest can hide and heal tank while avoiding the stun completely.

    Phoenix AE cycles every 30 seconds, explodes 15 seconds after emote.

    Stun cycles every 30 seconds, first one is 30 seconds after pull.

    Pull named at the same time a Phoenix AE emotes to get them staggered ~15s apart.

    Last mini has a single target knockback, be careful of getting between it and the edge of the island.

    Kill the 05 swirl out of LoS of where your group is, invis immediately after. It pops the named where it dies, and you can control pull timing by not immediately aggroing it.

    Keep pulling golems the whole time(except during bosses if you can avoid it). They path around, so you can't be cute and try to avoid them if you can't reliably face multiples.

    Golems can be stunned. Golems can be offtanked by a pet, they have new-style aggro.

    Boss has old-style aggro, and will ignore pets in favor of melee in range.

    A boss and a golem can be tanked by a group geared tank + group healer, though probably requires finishing the boss during the good discs.

    Paladin could simply stunlock the add while letting the boss beat on them.

    Ideally avoid an add by blowing through the boss quickly.

    Both knights benefit from timing some burst healing to coincide with an AE hitting them.

    If desperate, use the tank glyph for the phases that are hardest for you.

    If DPS is a bigger struggle for you than tanking/healing, I strongly suggest just eating the AE's by staggering them. Moving for a few seconds every 30 seconds cuts a lot of time out of your DPS's ability to keep pace with whats going on. Particularly when adding the 4.5 second stun, making the movement out of 25.5 seconds instead of out of 30. Won't get the achievement for the special aug, but will get the mission done.

    Extending your idling while pulling golems can allow someone to leave the island and med for a few minutes if needbe. It also allows you to let discs return so that you can be at your best for each boss, though this potentially extends the runtime of the mission into the 45-50 minute range with no true rest point.

    This one's hard, but I don't actually think any class comes off as weak for it. And I've seen people run it with clear preferences for offensive stacking and defensive stacking. What I don't think I've seen is skipping Tanks entirely in favor of a melee DPS tank, whereas I have seen a lot of DPS/aDPS slots going to more tanking/healing.

    This is considerably more involved and in the weeds for mechanical tightness than the vast majority of what a group has to go up against in a lot of the other missions.
    Parker and Yendar like this.
  14. Tucoh Augur

    Ash trial is one of those fights where doing it a few times to get Fireproof it got easier and easier once you got the mechanics down. Just getting good at avoiding the meteors makes it pretty easy, and doing it in the north area there are few golems.

  15. Skalde Elder

    You can easily shorten the running distance on that by just positioning in that little cave and then running left right before the lava river (from the ramp looking down on island pov) when the fire emote lands at cave and alternate because alot of movement = lost dps.
  16. Whulfgar Augur

    For ash trial if u simply stay in the nook it becomes trivial...

    Nothing more to be said of the event
  17. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    My thoughts on GMM - it feels like LDON did back in the day, just grab any 6 players and beat it, don't need a special group make up, just grab a healer and a tank/pet and beat it, even mercs do a good job here!

    I also think it is doing a grand job as the 110 Hot Zone, something which has been very lacking, especially for chars who still have a mountian of AA to earn, I'm looking at 20K + on both my shaman and by Beastlord, on the same account so cannot even box (still dreaming of getting 1 moved to another account).
    Parker likes this.
  18. Flatchy Court Jester

    Still arguing this? Leave it alone.
  19. Vdidar Augur

    The mobs should be easy considering navigating the zone is a pita.
    Flatchy likes this.
  20. MelediWeaver Journeyman

    It is a real shame that so often the developers read the forums and forget that the people who have time to read (and troll) here are the same people who can play the hours it takes to beat the TBL missions. I have done all the group missions in TBL, and all but the last raid in Mearatas. Yeah.. but I am retired folk.. I can play as often as I feel the need! But I get that a lot of our players don't have the luxury of the time I have - and its very cool to have a few tasks and missions where they can get some of their slots upgraded. I have enjoyed playing EQ since Beta, I want my kids to find me a nursing home when I get to that stage where I can keep playing EQ. This is not going to happen if every enjoyable-to-the-casual- people development gets nipped in the bug because an uber who boxes (possibly with programs-that-shall-not-be-named) has already got theirs and is whining again.