Future content should be scaled down.

Plenty of guilds are bringing close to 54 real people to raids, your numbers are way off.

No one is saying we need bigger raids, just that reducing the raid size is a bad idea.

No amount of class balance is going to fix issues with some classes not being desired in 24 person raids when there is 16 classes. You are going to need more then 2 of some classes in a raid and that quickly eliminates spots for some classes.

Back in 2000 you had larger raids because it wasn't limited by the number of people allowed in the instance. Also players did a lot fewer things each second which means there was a lot less work for the servers to do.

If that is true then that is also a class balance issue because you shouldn't NEED any one class to do a raid. Raids should never be designed to require any one class a well designed raid should allow a variety of class makeups to complete it.

This proves that you know absolutely nothing about EQ for the past 5? years. You don't need any one class to raid.

I can take a raid with 0 warriors and 0 clerics and beat all of NoS just fine. There IS a threshold for # of healers/tanks and potentially a mezzing class (for Under Siege).

Easy Frank might wanna go back and follow the convo before you comment.

All NoS raids are reasonably completable by 3 groups, with the exception of Under Siege and Demiurge (and that's mostly due to mechanics). There's no class requirements in any raids, although there are some archetype requirements (Clr/Shm, plate tanks, Brd/Enc for mez mechanics).

Looking at NoS raids, how exactly would you scale them down for smaller raid forces? Faster reset of wisp lockout on Under Siege, no timed adds/god blobs on Demiurge? That's about it. Reducing HP further would simply cause the top guilds to go back to heavy one minute burn strats. Do you want every fight to be like Zlandi?

Sure, call it a class balance issue but that doesn't change it is an issue that has been present for a very long time and wouldn't be fixed by a massive reduction in raid size. It would just be worse because as of now raids are large enough and don't require a full 54 players to beat it so there is plenty of room for everyone. Reduce it to 24 and you won't have room which will end up with people quitting the game because they are sitting and would rather quit then find a new raid force.

This sounds like a failure in recruitment/retention/desire to merge with another guild instead of a failure in EQ 54 player raid design. The guilds I have been in for the past 10-15 plus years generally have 54 plus a bench, and only during the summer months does it drop into the 40s...

We had a bench last week, though not every week. We are averaging 40-45 mains and then we fill out the rest with boxes for any key classes. That's the way it's been for the last 15 years. A few of the faces have changed but our numbers have been pretty consistent.

I have been in the same guild for the last 15 years so I can't speak to what other guilds are experiencing.

You said it yourself. They are invited to just fill slots because of lack of other ideal classes. That's a pity invite. Why are you so confused?

I did, your comment was just bad. Class balance IS bad and EQ AND you can also delete half the classes and be fine on every raid.

No, that isn't what I said. They get invited because they are members of the raiding force, not as pity invites. There is a difference when you have to cut over half your raid force if they shrink raids to 24 versus keeping the status quo as it is.

The reduction of raid sizes from 72 down to 54 was not related to guilds not being able to field full raids.

It was due to difficulties designing content that would make all 72 people feel like they mattered and were important to the success of the raid. the 72 person raids had too many "filler" slots in reality, and the devs wanted players to not feel like fillers & that they had to be engaged & participate fully.

The developers have shown they can design content for 54 players ever since PoP and so far it hasn't looked like they have totally run out of ideas even if a lot of "mechanics" are re-used.

Given the opportunity, a raid leader would prefer the better classes. There aren't enough players to fill a raid of the best set up. You get what you get. A pity invite.

And just imagine how laggy current raids would be with 72.

Join a better guild. We have a wait list to get into raid for most of the year as we usually have 55 or 56 people online at raid start time. During the first 3 months of the expansion, we're around 60+ mains online. We have to cycle people in and out between events so everyone gets to play. But our class distribution is DPS heavy. We could not split raid because we wouldn't have the tanks and clerics to make an adequate 2nd force. We also would run into the problem of deciding who to split into the 2nd raid and who to put in the main raid. Not all of our players are at the same skill level as everyone else. So do we split into an A team and a B team so that the A team is generally going to be successful and the B team **might** be successful but struggle more? Or do we try to balance the forces, skill wise, and risk neither team being successful? None of that is a scenario that our officers want to deal with on an ongoing basis.

You've been in the wrong guilds.

I have always thought that we don't need smaller raids, we just need bigger group content. Even small guilds could do stuff with 2-3 groups. I wouldn't shrink or get rid of anything. Maybe something between the group missions and raid zones?

Also, I agree with Smokezz. You've been in the wrong guilds. I haven't had someone box a spot in a raid for years.