Frenzied vs Twisted Chance

Discussion in 'Melee' started by Bealum, Mar 18, 2020.

  1. Szilent Augur

    Definitely buff locked, you did that to yourself. Get rid of Shadow buffs, block spell haste, block damage shield, drop shm haste if you have enc haste on. If you have guildmates prone to sillyness, you may have to block nonsense like resist buffs
  2. Bealum New Member

    ok thanks, just odd that i never had to block anything before and happened twice in same night after months of raiding , so maybe resist buffs etc
  3. Bealum New Member


    so that could answer that problem but how about this one

    not fully buffed, epic 2.0 clicky is ready shows no timer but will not click sometimes, also with BP it happens occasionally too
  4. Skecpa Journeyman

    Items put on the hot bar tend to bug out and not display their cool downs when they are on cool down. Not sure what causes it but it's routine that it happens. When they are not on cool down they will activate and sometimes start showing the CD again.

    More reliable way may be to make a social key with a built in timer and /useitem XXX
    Szilent likes this.
  5. Bealum New Member

    ok will try that thanks
  6. Vythika New Member

    Sorry I'm late replying.

    Hmm... If I ever had stacking issues it was so long ago I don't remember.
    You can always check for stacking issues on lucy though:
    https://lucy.allakhazam.com/stacking.html?id=48852&source=Live
    https://lucy.allakhazam.com/stacking.html?id=41163&source=Live

    I don't think rake's ramp has any stacking issues you could actually achieve, so like others have said - probably buff blocked.
  7. Bahdah Augur

    I went ahead and tested this again, field test that is, and Im just not seeing what you all are seeing, i get a better overall, and i've gotten my burns to 2.6 2.9 with frenzied and havent seen that number with twisted
  8. Izzard of Bertox Lorekeeper

    This is a very good thread. Love the discussion. Of equal importance (imo) is your buff setup. We have the self "clicky" pile and the {fill in class} buff pile.
    In my experience - You can get 2 Familiar effects, 2 Illusion effects, and 1 mount effect if you click them in the correct order. Familiars first, then mount, click off the mount (not the mount effect) then illusion 1, click off the illusion (not the effect) then click illusion 2.
    Don't forget your DD and stat poisons (I like Quellous to remove agro). Give all the mele spider-bite and all the tanks Scorpion.
    Coordinate the epic 2.0(2.5), pinpoint, Covenant, and COP IV.
    During battle there are a few DPS clickys Ive gathered over the years. If they are not instant (less than 1sec) cast time, they are detrimental to DPS. Otherwise, they add a tiny (but every little bit counts right?) .

    ok I've hit my typing limit.
  9. Winnowyl Augur

    You *can* get 3 familiars, if you do it right. Tho the gains are small.
    Thunderkiks likes this.
  10. Forcallen Augur

    Is this still the case? Seems like the magic number of 2700 hdex, shaman buffs, fortified drinks, ToV Ancestral Aid and Twisted Chance would lead to magical things for 60s every 10 minutes.
  11. Cadira Augur

    Parsing with my rogue alt, taking adps into heavy consideration (bard stuff, shaman epic, beastlord dicho), I found twisted chance to far outweigh frenzied in dps when stacked with your full burn aas.

    I didn't parse it but I imagine without adps and/or your burn aas frenzied probably out does twisted by a bit. I like to throw fs up right after twisted goes down to sync it with the remainder of the burn though for sure.
    Fenthen likes this.
  12. Forcallen Augur

    Partial/no adps, are there 9 adds to AE and how many rogues present for mark chain definitely impacts which returns more. I was asking more in a raid on a single target with full raid adps. Bahd and those guys were getting bigger return in raids with FS but that was a few months ago when folks likely hadn't hit 2700 hdex yet. That tipping point with shaman stuff and the drinks should net 100% crit rate which likely now would put TC ahead again. My little guy can't hit that hdex mark yet to know if the math aligns with in game play.
  13. Szilent Augur

    the conditions you describe put rogues at just under 80% crits


    and is unlikely to effect disc selection, since critting is a multiplier on either one
  14. Cadira Augur

    I didn't mention it but all the parsing was on a "approximately" raid level dummy (5.5k ac, lvl 120). So it fairly adequately describes the situation you were inquiring about, yeah? To be fair I didn't test mark with fs.
  15. Forcallen Augur

    I was going by Sancus's magic melee crit rate post in this thread. Don't see where I would be off by 20% critical rate. So if the below is correct I would imagine pairing flanking/rakes/shm epic/funeral dirge time with 100% crit rate over FS could be netting more which is why I was asking. Most folks likely hadn't hit 2700 hdex back in March.


    SPA 169
    Combat Fury - 230%
    Cleave IX - 360%
    DoN - 40%
    TC - 500%
    Total: 1130% he then later explains another 100% for a total of 1230% or a 12.3 SPA169 mod.

    Dex
    From IDK where 45
    Base Dex 255
    Dex Cap 369 (1065 base, 500 Anc Aid, 481 Krom, 58 drink nets 2104 Dex cap. Less 255, times .2)
    HDex 540 (2700 * .2)
    Total: 1209

    (1209 * 12.3) = 14,870. Rogues are subject to the 3 by 5 step. So (14870 * 3)/5 = 8,922. Which is then divided by 8900 for critical rate. 8922/8900 which is 100%.
  16. Szilent Augur

    Ah yes, during Twisted with the rest is 100%. but there's definitely nothing magical about 2700 during TC. 2500 gets 99.17% during TC, which is indistinguishable from full over disc duration. An additional 200 hDex only benefits the other disc, Frenzied, since crit rate isn't against the 100% ceiling during that one.
    Sancus likes this.
  17. Forcallen Augur

    2500 Hdex with TC nets 96-97% crit rate depending on how it rounds. 2700 hdex is where you first get 100% crit rate. Which could change the dynamic, I just don't know where the tipping point is which is why I am asking. Back in May I would guess ROI rogues were already 2500 hdex. So they already had made the comparison between a 96% crit rate with TC and all mods verses all mods with FS and FS was winning. My question is has this changed with 2700 hdex seeming to be the magic number for TC now.

    If they already had 2700 hdex back in May then my question is pointless as they already made the comparsion.
  18. aozs Elder


    Assassinate-enabled mobs? That's the only situation I could see frenzied doing much better. (though it would probably be way better than that, and I'm assuming you know what you're doing as a raiding rogue so it's probably not the case).

    I used to pop Frenzied first with all my other stuff, but when I sat down and actually did some dummy tests, TC came out waaay ahead. Since switching up my burn sequence I get up to 1.5-1.6m regularly in field testing as well, as opposed to the 1.1-1.3m that I was seeing before. This is with a group geared 115 rogue with brd+shm+bst adps.

    I don't really see how stacking Frenzied with Rake's Rampage makes sense since it doesn't synergize at all, while TC amplifies all the extra auto swing damage.
  19. Szilent Augur

    oop, you've missed +200 from campfire/banner. and +26 Juggler's Grace tribute.

    When I updated my calc with current Ancestral Aid, actually over 100% crit with 2500
  20. Forcallen Augur

    Yeah so if those both stack with the other stat cap stuff I mentioned then like you said the magic hdex number drops down lower. So its very likely then in May that they already were hitting 100% crit rate under those conditions (sham buffs, pots, banner, sham AA, TC, etc) and testing that scenario with everything vs FS with everything and still finding FS ahead under the correct settings.

    I didn't realize rogues could hit 100% crit rate for a period like some other tanks and melee can. So thought maybe that changed the dynamic.

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