followup on berserkers

Discussion in 'Melee' started by Reilloc, Sep 26, 2013.

  1. Reilloc Lorekeeper

    [There is concern about berserkers]
    As a semi recent new berserker main from starting over in EQ , I very much see issues/concerns that some people have posted about sustained DPS/defensives/etc with Berserker. I have asked myself many times leveling up, "why did i make a berserker when a monk/rogue would have been just as good dps( or better) plus have much more utility/heals/tank abilities?" There is nothing really that a berserker can do that one of the other two formentioned classes cant do better and more of.
    Now before you start into it, i dont want to hear " then make a monk or rogue then if you dont like the class." I do like the berserker class and playstyle , thats why i chose it, but comparatively speaking, other melee have a distinct advantage in almost all situations.
    Could some longtime Berserkers chime in and give an opinion they see? I have seen posts around where many berserkers refuse to play till the fix some of the issues that we now have. Maybe its a vocal minority, but i just dont see that.

    [Edited to keep the thread in line with the forum guidelines - Piestro]
  2. Eshtoma Lorekeeper

    Berserkers are in a bad state right now and the new expansion isn't going to fix it (Believe it gets worse since they are nerfing Brutal Discipline). I will not switch classes since I too like the lore and playstyle of the zerker. I am also not happy with the lack of developer response and feedback with the class and how they can leave classes in the gutter for so long. I love the game, and I always will, but if the berserker class doesn't get any love in the near future, I see myself putting my $15 towards another mmo soon. The lack of content in the new expansion was a shot down too..
  3. Erollisi_Zam New Member

    Apparently these days, we can't eat our cake or have it as a matter of fact.
    The discs that we do have are decent for short burns (given the right support in raid/group), but for sustained DPS in raid encounters and/or group situations, we have fallen to the way side.
    I have had my berserker from the first day that they were released pretty much. In the very early days were basically the same DPS as warriors but could only wear chain and had no defensive abilities (i don't count recklessness since it's only 6 seconds long). We did get fixed though, we became the premier DPS class for a couple of expansions. It did come at a cost though, our big DPS which only came by hurting ourselves or blinding ourselves. Personally, I believe that was the trade off.. we'd get more DPS than the other DPS classes, but at the expense of our self-harming abilities.

    Currently, we have even more self harming abilities to play with, but they don't even boost our DPS to really compete with the other DPS classes for the majority of the raid encounters that i've seen in RoF so far. The only encounters we do well in are encounters where it's basically a tank and spank.. as long as the raid doesn't push the boss away from you when you have to root yourself, blind yourself and hurt yourself to put out decent DPS numbers.

    I guess there are two ways that we could be improved as a start. Either remove all of these self-harming requirements from our AAs/Discs, or make the pain worth it by massively increasing the DPS, so that the cost is worth the effort.

    Personally, I am sick of all of the new and creative ways that have been created for our class to be able to harm ourselves, yet we see no real benefit in sustained DPS from this. I feel like some sort of emo teenager listening to love songs, not a Raging Troll Berserker wanting to tear things up.

    I'd love to see the self harming procs removed completely, since no other class has to blind, root, snare, stun, hurt themselves just to perform their main role.

    Once that has been done, would love to see some form of passive DPS increase to help with our sustained DPS ability such as playing around with the frenzy mod. I'm not asking to be overpowered again. Just competitive again in both group and raid scenarios.
    Reilloc likes this.
  4. Qest T. Silverclaw Augur

    I don't get it. You want to be Rogues, but with axes? Where do you think you belong in comparison with the other classes?
  5. Reilloc Lorekeeper

    you dont get it.
    berserkers are big rampaging behemoths swinging big 2handers... not puny daggers.
    WE are both DPS.. fairly equal.
    AFTER that point, we have nothing to compare or offer utility wise like a monk or rogue.
    Monks have mend, FD, many various skill attacks.
    Rogues have SoS, poisons, backstab, hide/sneak
    Berserkers get frenzy..
    once we start getting disc, many of our disc require us to kill ourselves to do what others get usually with some other bonus, not a negative effect.
  6. Bighitz Augur

    I would like to see us rewarded for our selfharm, that it is accepted that we blow everyone out of the water when we can root ourselves and have ourselves blind, and when not. Well we can compete on equal terms (our higher deathrate because of selfharm even in this case outweights that).

    VOA was a good expansion when it came to the reward of self harm on short burns. Thats the comparable level I want to get at, we weren't envyed in VOA, rogues were still sought after. Wizards were overall a bit too weak, but most of the rest was alright balance wise. The only thing I didnt like with VOA was our support dependency, but that doesn't seem to get changed ever (which is fine if we get rewarded a bit for being the most support dependent class in the game)
  7. Bighitz Augur

    By the way to be fair to developers, they did state what they thought were the state of each class in their respective threads and I basically agree with everything they said, so even if there isn't enough change on the start of COTF, there probably will be.

    That being said, we are getting a nice proc skill this expansion, that makes us proc 2 hand slashes :). like 2/3 of rallos of axe damage (85 disc). Its a nice addition. Furthermore devs. ackknowledge what we already agreed on, the MAX burn number on berserkers does not need a bump up. the frequency (consistancy) and our sustained is what needs to be worked on.

    Devs. agreed on the sustained part, which is great. I feel that the devs did hear us this beta, so I think next AA release will be helpful too.
  8. Bighitz Augur


    We dont wan't to be rogues. We want to be a great burst class that can take the top spot when conditions warrent it, but also got a high risk profile that means we are more likely to die often or fail more often than other classes. They risk profile they got right and we are slightly ahead on the burn when we can be rooted etc (wizards are too close tho for being such great sustained).

    On sustained we also want to do well, but we dont expect to be top 2.

    That I think is the average view on berserkers and where they want to be.

    As I understand rogues wants to be more balanced between sustained and burst, having slightly better sustained than us, but somewhat lower burst.

    What we need to understand is that sustained is alot better to be good at than just burst, so just because you are great at burst doesnt mean you should be horrible at sustained as a DPS class. It just means you shouldnt be the top dog in both categories - thats my view atleast.
  9. Denhbers Elder

    I made my berserker shortly after GoD came out.

    He became my raiding main a little before DoN... Back then, he stunk. However, I saw an effort by developers to make the class a viable DPS class. It was awesome watching this toon slowly climb his way to #1 DPS in the guild I was in. I was consistently at or near the top if I lived. Berserkers always soloed badly, but it was fun to try and solo whatever I could... like named in fabled BoT for example back when that first came out.

    I took a small break in SoF/SoD and came back to a gutted class in late SoD/early UF. All I could do was raid dps, I could barely molo in Brell's Rest in full SoD raid gear. In groups, wizards could outburn me 3 to 1. Just stating facts here, no wizard hate... So that got old quick, and I retired again.

    I came back last November, leveled from 85 to 100, and then steadily decked myself out in raid gear. I LOVED ROF, HOWEVER.... The nerfs/bugs/dev logic for berserkers during RoF was (chunky halfling road pizza).

    My wife and I just shelled out 80 bucks for CotF on 2 accounts so as a paying customer I have every right to state my opinions. It stunk and you guys know it.

    Every (halfling) time I'd think about how happy I was playing again they'd nerf my (halfling) class that was already struggling mightily to be useful at all. What do we bring to the table, really... seriously, ask yourself that question. All I can think of is this:

    A skilled zerker is of course an asset to a guild because he/she's a smart player. A less than skilled zerker in a raiding guild is useless.

    Maybe this was all my fault; I moloed in a t4 zone for an hour and lived. Clearly, zerkers and rogues should never, eeeeeeever be able to do that. (sarcasm, obviously)

    If a zerker is not swinging a raid weapon, it's utterly useless except for being a decap bot.. The ratios on group weapons are shameful.

    Conclusion: If you raid frequently, zerkers can be fun and rewarding. You can ghetto split using fade or the "Velious Snowball" (then wait for refresh if they fail lol). If you are a grouper or soloist, stay far away from this class.
  10. Phrett Augur

    Okay...
    Berserkers usefulness like most other classes has been cyclical. There was a stretch of a few expansions where berserkers were just flat out awesome. Over the past 3 years we've been in a state of decline, and as everyone is painfully aware... we're not quite as useful these days. I will say this, the state of berserker DPS is not as bad as some on these boards claim... IF we've got some support. Which leads me to the actual problem with the class... no surprise, is our complete dependence on the perfect group makeup to make our DPS equivalent to other classes and the means by which we have to hit high DPS. Roots, blinds, Self-damage, perfect group makeup requiring perfect timing from 3-4 other players that we have no control over... there's your trouble.

    One of two things needs to happen:
    1) If we're going to continue to need the planets to be in perfect alignment to get our real DPS potential, at least make the numbers worth the effort. Right now, it takes a hell of a lot of lucky rounds to keep up with a good Wizard. (sustained still needs a little bump); or,

    2) Somehow adjust the class to be less dependent on support classes and then the current DPS balance would make a little more sense (again, sustained would need a little bump).

    Disclaimer** I still love playing my berserker, as I've said I don't think the state of the class is quite as bad as some have claimed. I accept the fact that classes go through long phases where they're the flavor of the month versus the red-headed step child. We're in the bottom section of the wave now, let's hope we'll start moving toward the crest again soon.
  11. Reilloc Lorekeeper


    i know its better than it was back in the olden days, but i still believe there is to much disparity between group gear/weapons and raid gear/weapons. I have been on both sides of the fence as a raider and group only player. I have gone from one to the other in a single expac and the differences it makes are huge. I went from barely being able to solo things to near trivializing solo play.
    Does anyone know if there is a pre determined ratio difference between the two fully geared? 10%, 20%?
    i totally agree with #2, and i think it should be that way for ALL classes. I shouldnt require multiple other classes JUST to get in range of what others are able to do alone.
  12. Bighitz Augur

    I can second that a Group only berserker is flat out useless. the problem is that our uselessness in grouping is NOT rewarded in raiding. Something alot of berserkers dont care about as they are pure raiding berserkers more or less.

    Hell I dont care if we are useless groupwise as long as we are the best burst and great sustained, everything else doesn't make much sense, because we sacrifice more than any other class (root. blind etc).

    I basically totaly Agree with Phrett. each class has to make sense.


    BUT

    devs are aware of our issues and balancing in general. They showed in beta that they are fully aware of the state of Things, and thats the only thing we can hope for. what they do with that information is up to them.
  13. Denhbers Elder

    I'm not feeling so warm and fuzzy that the developers are "aware" of things. What I'm feeling is called buyer's remorse. (No, I'm not going to quit, but I regret giving them so much money for this nerf-fest.)
  14. Bighitz Augur

    Being a dev is a hard job. It does a ton of a difference for me just to know that devs actually acknowledge where different classes stand balancewise. This is what got me raging in the first place. If they are aware of the problems and we offer solutions, thats the best we can do.

    We might not be where we should be with this release sustained wise and on our consistancy on burn. But we will get AAs later and we will get new weapons. Group berserker will still be useless, but we are moving in the right direction sustained wise, albeit slowly.
  15. Reilloc Lorekeeper

    your key word their is SLOWLY... if it goes any slower all will have moved on to a class that is worth playing.
  16. Denhbers Elder

    No beastlords in guild pretty much = I'll never see the numbers that I should. At least it's not me being a lousy player I guess.

    I will agree that our main problem is being so class dependent. It seemed that the t4 weapon was addressing that situation. Oh never mind, time to nerf again.

    I'm not just irritated at this... I'm not happy about them nerfing casters either (I don't play one, nor do I want to). Class balancing? More like a cop-out.

    My wife doesn't play much anymore, but she quit playing her main (rogue). Her former class has been ignored also.

    I am not fine with "cyclical flavors of the month" AT ALL. What happened to "Every dps should be interchangeable"? I'd compromise being constantly #1 if I was at least interchangeable.

    Nowadays almost EVERY job is a hard job. Being an auto mechanic is way tougher on the body than being a developer. If I won't give any slack to an auto mechanic who (halfling'd) up my car, I'm not giving any slack to a developer of a game. I paid $40 so that my toon will be worse come patch day. Boo.
  17. Bighitz Augur

    Interchangeable simply Means, they all are worth getting and no pure DPS class is just flatout better than other. Thats how I understand it. It doesnt mean we all have the same max burn or same sustained, just that we are all just as valuable.

    I have to differ on opinion on casters. Casters the way they are built, are alot more consistant than any melee DPS and the way they are balanced, they have alot less use of supports and also have an overall less chance of dying in encounters.

    I had trouble playing EQ because I felt the intregrity of the game was ruined with the last expansion. Because some classes just were flatout better than others. The changes in COTF is ness. to bring back game integrity. As I also said earlier, I dont think we are where we should be yet on consistancy and sustained - but we are taking steps in the right direction.
    Xianzu_Monk_Tunare likes this.
  18. Denhbers Elder

    I'm not a true old timer (started 11 yrs ago) but I can say that it's been this way since I started playing.

    For example, at lvl 70 wizards were just plain awful. During UF, beastlords were as low as it gets.

    Now, beastlords are the bane of my EQ existence because of their RF buff that I never get. What kind of mass stupidity did it take to force berserkers to rely on a 3rd class to be competitive.... I wasn't around during that time, but I sure feel the effects of this idiotic decision more than most. If bsts needed a dps boost (which they did), why not just let them self buff? /facepalm

    Are casters OP? Not for me to judge... I play a berserker and I HATE stupid nerfs. I was actually thinking I'd be safe this time around, oh wait nm the derp train stopped at zerker station again...

    How exactly does nerfing brutal discipline represent a step in the right direction?
  19. Norathorr Augur

    I quit during VOA due to being rooted to the ground during burns in a game where push is a very big issue. I played since Kunark, so it took a pretty poor developmental decision to finally push me away. Also if we are to rely on so many other classes compared to the other melee we should be able to do alot more damage than any other class when conditions are right, else stop making us rely so heavily on others and balance around it.
  20. Bighitz Augur

    Berserker DPS is the result of the work of a: Bard, Shaman, Beastlord and a ranger.

    But it is not taken into consideration. Casters always find that "valley" parse as in VOA. where we just blow out enourmous DPS, and then point at it and cry nerf. The harsh reality is though that berserkers DPS is not a product of ourselves at all and to want berserkers balanced at the same level as wizards is to make a naught out of berserkers and ADPS in total.

    Wizards never wanted any ADPS, so why the freaking god should they be able to compare to classes that were fine with being totally ADPS dependent? It doesn't make sense to me. EQ should be give an take, but some classes just want it all, same classes that solo like monsters, can burn down current content kiting without a merc etc. etc.

    Reducing the DPS of the classes that got the highest potential is deemed to fail, unless we take into considerations the frequency and requirements to hit that DPS.

    I like the cooperation of EQ and I love ADPS, the moment ADPS is gone we will all realize that we missed it, I dont want to be ALOT less ADPS dependent, but hte problem is there seems to be 0 penalty for being able to do everything yourself and so of course our reaction is we dont want to rely on others either then.

    Tbh. I think that moves EQ in the wrong direction.
    Norathorr likes this.