Fix Warrior class please

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Syrup, Jul 20, 2015.

  1. Repthor Augur

    a simple fix for paladins AE aggro whould be to add a hate override on their group heals or to add an aa that procs X hate when their casts one of their group heals not to much but not insignificant either . their direct heal dont need modded their singel target aggro is on par. AE aggro needs help for sure however, and ofcorse it whouldent trigger on AA group heals. as screwing with heal aggro much break other parts of the game and we dont want that
  2. Ravengloome Augur

    Or they could just boost the hate mod on the heal portion of Valiant t deflection if/when they upgrade it. Since currently outside of Beacon that's our only active AOE aggro.

    And that's only if it works like it's supposed to I can't remember ever testing it to verify that portion of the spell actually works.
  3. Warpeace Augur

    An AA to proc additional hate or a set value from heals would be interesting as long as it can be activated on demand.

    AE stun would actually fit better for Paladin as an AE agro tool. Maybe make it a short duration stun that's mainly for the agro effect or proc.

    Adding agro to group heals I just don't see as a good thing when later down the road you have people telling Paladins to just spam your group heals to generate AE agro just makes me shake my head and I would be against. Heals heal people for a reason agro abilities agro things for a reason, can a heal generate agro...yes but its not the primary function for the spell its more a side benefit.

    The simple fix to Paladin AE agro is to Fix Beacon. Extend the range back to 50 and put the hate over ride back in. Paladin as a class have been limited from AE agro tools from the Devs for years unless they plan to change it.
    Xeladom likes this.
  4. FixShamanPlease Elder

    My group geared enchanter is tanking better than your raid geared warrior YO!
  5. p2aa Augur


    In your dreams.
  6. Damoncord Augur

    When dreams are like that they are called nightmares.
  7. Kleitus_Xegony Augur

    I know it started out as a joke / fake thread, and I'm not sure why the direction turned towards paladins but just to clear up some things...

    Beacon is an AoE spell. Valiant Deflection is a single target spell. He's thinking of Insidious Deflection which is an SK spell.

    [40078/10550] Valiant Deflection
    Classes: PAL/98
    Skill: Alteration
    Mana: 1028
    Target: Single
    Range: 200'
    Resist: Magic -50
    Reflectable: No
    Casting: 0.5s, Recast: 6s, Timer: 17, Rest: 1.5s
    1: Increase Hate by 6794
    2: Cast: Valiant Healing
    Text: Your rage is redirected.

    [40145/13545] Insidious Deflection
    Classes: SHD/98
    Skill: Evocation
    Mana: 1028
    Target: Caster PB
    AE Range: 30'
    Resist: Magic -50
    Trigger Spell DS: Yes
    Reflectable: Yes
    Casting: 0.5s, Recast: 6s, Timer: 17, Rest: 1.5s
    Hate Mod: +1772
    1: Increase Hate by 2378
    2: Decrease Current HP by 2411
    3: Return 45% of Damage as HP, Max Per Hit: 4099
    Text: Your rage is redirected.

    [41098/21821] Beacon of the Righteous
    Classes: PAL/254
    Skill: Abjuration
    Target: Caster PB
    AE Range: 30'
    Resist: Magic -100, Max Resist Chance: 10%
    Reflectable: No
    Casting: 0s
    Duration: 18s (3 ticks), Dispelable: Yes
    1: Increase Hate by 12000
    2: Stun for 3s up to level 103
    3: Increase Hate by 6500 per tick
    Text: The beacon of light fuels your rage.

    As I see it, the main problems with the current Beacon compared to the pre-nerf version are as follows:
    1. Stun portion is capped at 103. Most mobs in current game play (group and raid) are higher than lvl 103. This should be upgraded to be lvl 108 in the next expansion (assuming the level cap for players stays at 105).
    2. Limited number of targets for the effect
    3. Removal of the Hate Override portion of the original ability
    4. Lowering of the stun's duration
    Number 2 is a real class-balance position, and you can argue the need for 3 and 4 for balance reasons as well (most people disagree with the devs on #3). The stun portion definitely needs brought back up to player level +3. It's a big benefit in the group game when used as intended but the current version is seriously underwhelming. In current raids, it's not like you're going to have Paladins providing meaningful crowd control via Beacon and replacing enchanters in any of the raids where AE Stuns are useful (Arx1 - when captain goes live, Arx2 - when you stack up green golem adds, Arx3 - start with skeleton adds, Arx4 - the 4 stunnable adds, or Arx5 - the Liches). Paladins will most likely die in each and every one of those scenarios without outside CC. The enchanter AE stuns are all far superior in every one of those instances. You're better off having a "spare" warrior AE taunt in those situations than a paladin anyways.

    No. Please no. That would cause far more problems than it would ever fix and actually provide a reason not to use the group heals during certain situations. This would just end up as another way to cause paladins to burn through mana at an even quicker rate. Spamming group heals for aggro shouldn't be the 'fix'.

    In reference to paladin splash heals having "100 Hate" vs other heals. The answer is "No". It's just the Splash of XXXX line of heals. It can, sort of be used as an AE aggro tool in groups - it's just a very, very weak one. I've done it lots of times but anyone else using any sort of AE effect is going to pull aggro from you.

    Sojero is correct about heal aggro being screwy. Normal heals provide small amounts of aggro but only part of the time.

    The question about Shamans using Spiritual Surge and being seen on extended in Arx 1 isn't something to do with the spell. It's likely that shaman isn't fading or is splash healing far more often than everyone else (if that's the case, then please post their name, I'm sure a lot of guilds would like to recruit said shaman). I've noticed that you can fade and fire off a single splash heal just before the captain goes live in Arx 1 and be the primary target on most of the loose mobs left - at least I can. It's a good way to get yourself blown up if you forget and mobs don't get locked down / picked up for some reason. So it's probably an oddity with the mechanics in that particular raid rather than the coding for the spell. I know I get summoned across the zone a lot in this particular raid - more often than in any other. You're also going to see their last target on extended if the mobs get stun locked and never get to switch targets. I notice that all the time while tanking the trash mobs in Arx 3 - they actually have to switch targets to change what they're looking at on extended.

    The mention of a 'tank' mask is relevant. If you can't take the beatings from using splash spells, then don't wear the Echo of Anger masks. Use the other 'tank' mask that doesn't have an effect. In TDS, it's the Facia Vitala instead of the Mask of the Praetorum (http://www.raidloot.com/Compare.aspx?id=141511,141512).


    Honestly, to fix AE aggro for paladins could be done easily.
    1. Fix / Update Beacon
    2. Add a paladin version of the cleric line of earthquake spells with a longish recast
    3. Add an AE nuke + brief stun spell or AA with a longish recast - sort of like a PBAE version of a watered down Lesson of Grief. Would be similar in use to Beacon but have the downside of breaking loose any mezzed mobs.
    I wouldn't do both #2 and #3 without increasing reuse timers on some of the AE abilities for warriors though.
    Warpeace and sojero like this.
  8. sojero One hit wonder


    I know the other heals spells don't, I was trying to open lines of communication :) I had to leave the last part in for my ego.
  9. Ravengloome Augur

    Sorry Kleitus but Valiant deflection does have a hate Mod on the healing component it's like 2250 hate.

    Check eqresource.

    Heal aggro affects every mob who's hate list your on.
  10. Kleitus_Xegony Augur


    No it doesn't. From eqresource:

    Valiant Deflection Rk. III
    Paladin (98)

    Slot 1: Increase Hate by 7491
    Slot 2: Cast: Valiant Healing III


    Valiant Healing III
    Paladin (98)

    Slot 1: Increase Current Hit Points by 5316

    The hate mod is very clearly on the initial target of the spell. The secondary casting of Valiant Healing does not have a hate mod on it. They were very clear about it in beta that the paladin version of the spell is single target and the shadowknight version is multiple mobs.

    You could get heal aggro on all of the mobs on the hate list, but no more so than from any other heal such as Ardent Touch.
  11. Ravengloome Augur

    Yes it does on Eqresource it's right under the spell skill type look in the menu that shows mana cost
  12. sojero One hit wonder

    Valiant Healing Paladin (98)

    Hate Mod: 1772
  13. Ravengloome Augur

    Yep dat reading is so hahd
    Kleitus_Xegony likes this.
  14. sojero One hit wonder

    This may be a stupid question as I have not tested it at all with VD, but if you have a group of mobs come in, do a group heal to get on all their agro lists, does VD do that hate mod on all mobs every time you cast? Or is it just on the target mob? Also does it work like other heals where it is "sometimes" or is it always, since its not a hate override?

    If no one knows I can go test in a day or 2 when I get a chance to log in again.
  15. Ravengloome Augur

    Based on how hate mods work on other heals and from some minor testing I did. Yes. But I didn't use a group heal, I used that staff of disease whatever the hell it's called, dat instant click.

    Also if you've ever paid attention to how the hate mod on Aurora works. You'll know a shifty way to use the hate mod from VD.
  16. sojero One hit wonder

    yeah, Just looking for a way to help some guild pallies get more ae agro for when i hit some ae stuff on my zerker, not a bunch of agro from zerker but enough to rip agro if its not being paid attention to by the pally.
  17. Lianeb Augur

    In my experience Initial hate is very low...Like really low (in the hundreds). I don't know when a mobs initial hate cap changes to being able to apply full hate values without an override but it is very close to within melee range of the mob, or at a point where the mob can hit someone.

    I see a lot of tanks blow big hate Discs/AA/Spells when a mob is still within the initial hate cap range (ie...incoming) and they lose a lot of their hate due to the initial cap. They then end up starting the fight handicapped because now their big hate Discs/AA/Spells are in cooldown, and the hate was eaten by the cap.

    I am guessing that with VD a pally should wait till all the mobs are in range and then use the spell. With what is posted (can't look it up) it looks like the hate is not an override so even casting this on Incoming is going to lose a lot of it's hate value, even for the single target portion.
  18. Kleitus_Xegony Augur


    Yeah, ok - I missed that part of the spell. To be honest, I usually use raidloot.com and Lucy to look at the spells.

    That doesn't make it any more of an AoE spell than any other direct heal though. That just modifies the amount of hate applied when it goes through the screwy process that Sojero was pointing out. If you were going to get 5000 hate from the heal portion of Valiant Healing, it would actually assign 6772. It doesn't provide a base value of 1772 to all mobs that have you on the hate list for every cast of the spell - they still have to do the intelligence check stuff for the heal aggro to be assigned to them.

    By the way... the Aurora Heals have the same thing for 100 hate and admonish also does the same thing with a negative modifier (it lowers the amount of hate you would get on a successful check). Nothing about that "bonushate" mod makes any of those spells an "active AOE" ability. It behaves exactly like any other of our single target heals - all of which can give you heal aggro. It just modifies the amount of hate one way or the other when it is assigned.

    Understanding wut U read iz hard too. :p
  19. Ravengloome Augur

    The hate mod makes it ignore typical heal aggro rules just like Aurora does.

    I sort of hinted at that now I am saying it just to be clear.

    Because it's added to a heal it's added to your pool of hate on every mob surrounding you. Give it a whirl go test it.
  20. Kleitus_Xegony Augur

    I know what you were hinting at and it doesn't work that way. Here's how I just tested it.

    Mage and Pally go to West Freeport newbie zone both buffless and equipped with fishing poles in main hand:

    1.) Mage uses Malaise (lvl 22 debuff) to pull the following mobs (ungrouped with paladin):
    • a myotis bat
    • a myotis bat
    • a large rat
    • a decaying skeleton
    • a deathfist pawn
    2.) Paladin casts Valiant Deflection RK III on "a myotis bat"
    - all mobs are now on aggro list of paladin
    - "a myotis bat" switches targets to attack paladin
    - all other mobs continue attacking mage

    3.) Paladin casts Valiant Deflection RK III on "a myotis bat" 12 times
    - all other mobs continue attacking mage
    - only the one "a myotis bat" continues attacking paladin

    4.) Paladin casts Aurora of Dayspring RK II 20 times
    - all other mobs continue attacking mage
    - only the one "a myotis bat" continues attacking paladin

    5.) Mage uses uses Malaise (lvl 22 debuff) to pull a random "an orc centurion" wandering by

    6.) Group mage and paladin

    7.) Paladin casts Valiant Deflection RK III on "a myotis bat" 10 times (never doing any healing at all - still have not taken damage)
    - all other mobs continue attacking mage
    - only the one "a myotis bat" continues attacking paladin

    8.) Paladin casts Aurora of Dayspring RK II 30 times (note aurora does a min of 4pts of healing for some reason and thus applies the 100 hate on a successful intelligence check by the mob)
    - mobs switch from attack mage to paladin in this order
    - Cast #8 "a large rat" switches targets to attack the paladin
    - Cast #12 "a deathfist pawn" switches targets to attack the paladin
    - Cast #18 "an orc centurion" switches targets to attack the paladin
    - Cast #24 "a myotis bat" switches targets to attack the paladin
    - note: the dumb skeleton never switched targets after 30 casts of Aurora of Dayspring RK III

    9.) Fade both characters to clear all aggro

    10.) Reaggro the following mobs on mage using Malaise (lvl 22 debuff)
    • a myotis bat
    • a myotis bat
    • a large rat
    • a decaying skeleton
    • a deathfist pawn
    • an orc centurion
    11.) Paladin casts "Beacon of Righteousness" (highest current AA level)
    - all mobs switch from attacking mage to attack the paladin

    12.) Paladin fades and casts Aurora of Dayspring RK II 20 times
    - mobs switch at different casts counts (expected)
    - stupid skeleton never switches to attack the paladin

    13.) Fade paladin

    14.) Paladin casts Valiant Deflection RK III on "an orc centurion" 12 times (never doing any healing at all - still have not taken damage.
    - the only mob to switch to attacking the paladin is "an orc centurion"

    15.) Take damage from "an orc centurion" on paladin and cast Valiant Deflection RK III with the orc as the target

    16.) Cast Valiant Deflection RK III on "an orc centurion" 4 times (never doing any healing at all - have not taken additional damage.
    - mobs start switching to attack the paladin instead of the mage
    - skeleton gets bored and wandered off (totally unexpected but kind of funny)


    Again, the "hatebonus" field does not skip the intelligence test the mobs do when they assign healing aggro to you. It is not an AoE Aggro modifier of any sort - in fact Aurora only sort of pulls the aggro like you're thinking because it behaves differently. Its not at all reliable like something along the lines of Beacon of Righteousness is.