[Feedback] Berserker "Stinging Incision" End. Cost Too High

Discussion in 'Melee' started by minimind, Jan 7, 2022.

  1. minimind The Village Idiot

    TLDR - Please reduce the endurance cost of the Berserker ability "Stinging Incision" to a couple hundred endurance to be more in line with the previous version's cost.

    Stinging Incision is the second in a short line of berserker abilities with two functions:

    1. Drop HP to 89% and lock it there so that the certain berserker abilities can be activated.
    2. Provide a boost to melee avoidance and riposte as a trade-off to the loss of hitpoints.

    These abilities go into the song window and are not removable, but can be recast over and over to refresh their short 4-minute timers. Given the short timer on the debuff, many berserkers find themselves activating the ability more frequently than once every 4 minutes to ensure it stays up... and therein lay the problem.

    The new version of this ability came with a massive increase to the endurance cost:

    Level 106 - Ritual Scarification Rk. III (cost: 90 endurance)
    2: Increase Chance to Avoid Melee by 3%
    5: Cap HP at lowest of 89% or 475000
    6: Increase Chance to Riposte by 23%
    14: Decrease Current HP by 2022 per tick

    Level 116 - Stinging Incision Rk. I (cost: 2% of total endurance)
    2: Increase Chance to Avoid Melee by 3%
    3: Decrease Current HP by 1% up to 10000 per tick
    5: Cap HP at 89%
    6: Increase Chance to Riposte by 25%

    Using myself as an example, I have around 315,000 endurance. A 90 endurance cost once per minute is easily negligible, but paying 2% of that total (6,300 endurance) to use the next version of that ability is too much of a jump.

    In my opinion, the sacrifice of HP/Max HP is sufficient for the benefits and thus the endurance cost should stay low.
  2. Fintank Augur

    They probably made it % based for the sole reason of giving some small amount of resource management requirements to Berserkers. Ever since the Sapping Strikes line was added to the game Berserkers have had practically no resource limitations whatsoever. Deaths do not make a case for resource management and that's the only time there may be an issue.

    Don't spam it (because there's no reason to) and the issue is resolved.
    Qimble likes this.
  3. minimind The Village Idiot

    Depending on your group makeup, full berserker endurance isn't as guaranteed this expansion (I'll have to investigate all the other endurance costs of our abilities as well). After an 40-60 minutes at an aug camp on Tuesday, I was down to around 30% endurance just using normal spam abilities and not using Stinging Incision (using Bloodfury instead). In CoV/ToV, I didn't have to use any of our burst endurance regen options (CotF BP, End. Canni, Rest). Now they're a must.

    So it may just be that all the endurance costs may have been overtuned, but the change from negligible to 2% is too much.
  4. Fintank Augur

    I'd say that's pretty case in point, forcing the use of regen abilities is why most classes have them. It takes me about 10 minutes regardless of group composition to require a med break (if I don't use Scarlet Cheetah). 40-60 minutes and not even needing to med still seems way out of scale to me personally. I realize Rangers are the extreme minority now as the only class without actual resource recovery. Maybe they're leaning back into making resource management a thing for everyone again.
    Beimeith likes this.
  5. Beimeith Lord of the Game

    If you can't run out of a resource, then having a cost for it serves no purpose.

    Sounds like it is working as it should. Maybe not even quite enough yet if you can run 60 minutes continuously and still "only" have 30%.
    Treage_Imminent likes this.
  6. minimind The Village Idiot

    And that's quite possible. If that's their design decision, then so be it. But if that's the case, I'd feel better if they said, "Ya, endurance management has been a gimme for the last few expansions. We want you to run out like you used to."

    Otherwise, I'd assume it's an over-correction.
  7. minimind The Village Idiot

    True. It has felt comparatively easy for the last couple expansions. I'll have my first raid tomorrow night with the new abilities and we'll see how it goes after a mid-fight rez. Will my burst endurance regen abilities be sufficient or is it a "once dead, accept low dps for the rest of the fight" situation?
  8. Tolzol Augur

    I’ve died at the start of events had no endurance and ended the events with like 60% endurance soooooo i think you will be ok
    Viper1 likes this.
  9. minimind The Village Idiot

    Following up -- You were right. In the raid environment, there are so many different endurance regen things going on, that recovery isn't too much of an issue.

    That said, I've abandoned Stinging Incision because of the cost and gone back to Bloodfury. The cost is just too much in both the raid and group game. If it were to last longer (maybe 10 minutes instead of 4), I wouldn't feel compelled to hit it every 3 minutes to make sure it doesn't drop and thus over-cast it.

    If the current endurance cost stays, I'd suggest a longer duration (and comparable endurance cost increase to keep it fair) and the ability to click the ability off. Or, better yet, treat it like a stance.
  10. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    Could just set up the hotkey for it with a /timer at the start of the macro to make it a little more visible/easier to manage.
  11. minimind The Village Idiot

    /timer is a great idea! Widely underutilized!
  12. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    Yeah, I found it absolutely invaluable for all the (spam) abilities & discs zerkers have available.
  13. Cadman Elder

    Can't say I've ever liked using these health limiters, giving up 11% of my hitpoints for something that can be done with a hotkey incorporating Bloodfury doesn't seem like a good deal to me.

    That being said, are we even really using endurance? Sapping Strikes seems to keep us full pretty much always
  14. Filter Augur

    You're right we don't use a lot of endurance if you're just using mash key with disconcerting and holding discs for named mobs. Even by doing that I'm still hovering around 80% so I need push my dps more and sounds like you need to do the same.
  15. Cadman Elder

    Or you could ditch the attempt at condescension and not assume what my rotation is?

    I run with Tolzol's burns and keep them on cooldown, endurance isn't an issue
    Szilent likes this.
  16. minimind The Village Idiot

    I used to completely love them. I like the idea of taking damage (including outright reducing max HP) for the opportunity to do more damage. It's very berserker-y. But when my casual raid alliance progressed to the point of raiding current content, it became more of a liability. I'm sure that I've taken a death in a raid more than once due to that -11% max HP-- especially if/when I have to tank and have to quickly smash my "OH SH*T" button... a quarter second too slow.

    In the group game, I think it's great. My wife loves using it over Bloodfury on her zerk because it makes playing the zerk even more brainless.

    It's off-topic officially for the thread, but I've seen others promote the idea of certain combat abilities self-damaging, but never more than a total 11% (and wouldn't deal damage if you were below 89%).

    I'm sure there are a good number of ways to keep that trade-off that are easier to manage than we have now.
  17. minimind The Village Idiot

    Well this is why I made the post. I'm decently well geared (CoV-ToL raid) and Sapping strikes (or whichever is the latest) is on my spam list. I also use our AA endurance canni and the BP clicky from CotF (?) to refill. But going from 90 endurance per use of Ritual Scarification to 2% of one's entire endurance pool for Stinging Incision (6,300 endurance for me at the time of the original post) is massive.

    If you use Stinging Incision like most did Ritual Scarification (mashing it every 2-3 minutes because it's the ability only last 4 minutes), then you will chew through your endurance pool like we're back in pre-Sapping Strikes era. I think the only way I've been able to put Stinging Incision to use is when two-boxing so that I'm getting constantly endurance back from Killing Spree and Instinctive Retaliation.

    And that may be the intent given the tank-focused bonuses that comes with the Stinging Incision line. "Use this if intentionally tanking and use Bloodfury when you're not tanking."
  18. Filter Augur

    Sorry I must have been distracted when I responded. I meant nothing negative or condescending in my post, just taking note that I need push my own dps since I'm never below 80% and maybe I'm not doing my absolute best with my setup. I was wondering if you were doing the same as myself is all.
  19. Raging New Member

    I see a problem with merc healers, while using the "hp reduction" options available to Berserkers, where as the merc healers are constantly healing me thru the dot. Sometimes focusing on trying to heal me instead of the tank on first contact with the target. It's annoying and some tanks claim mercs are healing me instead of them.

    I do agree that "Stinging Incision" uses too much endurance and may force us to 'meditate' to regen endurance, which causes a serious loss of dps and is unacceptable. Yes, I am using "Shriveling Strikes" AND "Instinctive Retaliation".

    Another peeve about the hp reduction dots we use causes death (without a healer merc up) while in a non-timer zone such Guild Halls (while practicing melee on a combat dummy for instance). If you are in a group without a healer and smashing a hit point reduction dot, it is a death sentence!

    So I choose to use "Ritual Scarification" instead, but I still have the problem of mercs trying to heal me to 100% hit points and it appears to be an unnecessary use of their healing mechanics. "That should be fixed."
    minimind likes this.
  20. Raging New Member

    correction to: (I do agree that "Stinging Incision" uses too much endurance and may force us to 'meditate' to regen endurance, which causes a serious loss of dps and is unacceptable."

    Corrected To: "Stinging Incision" reduces hp's far too low, causing healers to heal me during battle and they are constantly distracted from their primary target in order to heal me.

    Mashing "Stinging Incision" in a group with no healer is a death sentence.