And only a small percentage of raiders are in elite raiding guilds. There is a considerable difference between giving knights the tools to replace warriors and giving knights the tools to perform better than they currently are. Don't worry. It really will be alright if others can enjoy the content. I promise, it won't diminish your virtual accomplishments or roles.
Absolutely, there are plenty of tools that can make Knights better in EQ (E.G. improvements to heal/curing, SK raid utility) that won't step on Warriors' toes. I think you'll find plenty of support for those.
I get rounded all the time as a Warrior when i am not fast enough to hit a disc. Knights get rounded all the time when they are not fast enough to hit a disc. Let's be realistic here, maybe my guild is uber or our knights are geared super crazy, and I don't believe either or those. It has been a while since I have seen a knight rounded by a raid mob given hey hit what needed hit. So really what was the last mob that rounded you as a Knight? Or are you just on the bandwagon? We have knights in mainly CoF T1 raid and a little TDS tanking in TBM. Do they get rounded? Sometimes when they miss a disc or are not fast enough. Guess what, so do Warriors.
And knights will -still- mitigate worse than wars. Wars will still be the best option for raid tanks. And the best choice for any standard group in group gear.
I actually want to see Knights get Two-handed Copy and paste 4: Decrease Chance to Parry by 60% 5: Decrease Chance to Block by 60% 6: Decrease Chance to Dodge by 60% Then we can see some rounded knights
Oh you must mean the softcap and 0.02 more return on AC that Warriors get. Cause by the looks of it you will be in every other way equal. For Reference: Paladins, Shadowknights: Cap 488 - Multiplier 0.33 Warriors: Cap 510 - Multiplier 0.35
Provided the first is true, the second will continue to be likely. The third statement however, will always remain a moving target. Tuning in EQ isn't an exact science. This also doesn't consider mechanics that distract or incapacitate the healer. You're always going to be better off with a Knight in those scenarios. I notice you left out that Warriors have always been, and for the foreseeable future will probably always be a distant last place in terms of soloability.
Wars have been stepping on knight's toes for years. Wars were never meant to be the only option for MT on raids. Iit's just over the past several years become that. Wars seem to forget that in the begining they were not choosing the 'raid tank' - they were choosing the 'easy and fast' option of tanking. The bonus to exp. The fewer AAs to earn to be viable, once those were added in. The lesser gear needed. Knights took that 15% exp penalty. The farther climb to the top. To be, at the end of the road, completely viable in all tanking situation, just as Wars are. Time have changed. Exp penalties are gone. Exp is easier to acquire. But that doesn't change the fact that, at it's core, EQ was meant to have 3 tanks viable for all tanking situations. Not one. Wars will -still- be the best choice. This doesn't change that. Maybe some wars are worried that they will have to keep their spot with skill, as opposed to just 'being required.' I don't know. What I do know is that no raid leaders I have spoken to would, if these changes work as believed, take a knight over a war as MT, given equal skill and gear. And really, isn't that all that matters?
Your point about mechanics is true, I'll admit. But that can work all three ways, depending on the tank, and what the 'issue' is. As for soloing... I realize I'm probably in the minority, but I don't feel that in an MMORPG, soloing should be much of an option, and have fought against Paladin DPS increases for years (though would still like bigger 'booms' on slays, regardless of how frequent or infrequent.) (And I'm still a firm believer that wars need a sizeable baseline DPS upgrade.) Don't misunderstand me. IF the devs made it so knights, in general, were the preferred raid MT I'd be against that as well. But I don't see that as happening here.
Two have damage caps and the other removes a large portion of self healing for shadowknights by decreasing their melee damage by 60% while its up. My comments come from a group perspective playing with other group players. Not what raid geared shadow knights or paladins are capable when over geared for the content or when healed by raid healers in group content. The damage caps limiting their duration when needed most or the hit to self healing for the other drastically limit knight tanks in some current group settings when only in group gear.
"we were reviewing hate generation code" Does anyone actually have a reference to the current hate generation code? I heard an old rumor that a steel warrior member named Yoda had it figured out, but I can not find it. Is the current Hate Generation code something like... 1 melee damage = A amount of hate 1 spell damage = B amount of hate 1 absorb damage = C amount of hate. 1 stun success or fail = D amount of hate. I think I understand how the Force of anger procs work but not sure. Hate generated = (hate for melee dmg) + (pure hate increase)? Some warriors use Blessed rune procs to generate aggro, but I fail to understand the mechanics behind how it works. The absorb line blessed rune is listed as 0 hate amount in raw spell data so Hate generated = (hate for absorb dmg ) ? The stun line Stunning Strike is listed as 0 hate amount in raw spell data... so Hate generated = ( hate for Spell Dmg )+ (hate for stun) ? So anyone actually know if the changes to aggro will make warriors use Force of Anger (ie Beloved Heartstopper) instead of the ones some use now Stunning strike ( ie. Ripoli, the Warrior's Havoc)
Warriors have always been a head and shoulders above knights when tanking raid bosses. That knights were able to tank a good number of raid bosses doesn't mean that they should tank *everything* just as well, if not better, than warriors. I say this as a paladin main. I'll wait to see how the upcoming changes work, but things aren't looking good for warriors. What do they bring to a raid if not tanking? They'll be worse off than shadowknights. As a paladin, the class is already as strong as I remember it ever being. We're in an expansion packed full of undead. We can cure and heal almost as well as priests. Now we'll tank just as well as warriors? Why bring warriors (or shadowknights) to a raid if you can stack enough paladins? I see a lot of downplaying of paladin healing here. Should warriors be the only tanks that tank *any* raid boss? No and that's not the case now. As Lianeb points out, if the warrior (and healers) aren't on the ball, they get rounded just as easily as knights. Knights should and can last a good bit when there are no warriors to tank. With all of the raids in TBM, are knights here really claiming that there is nothing that they can tank? When an expansion has a healthy amount of raids, there should be two or three events that require warrior tanking. Knights still have a few tools that can save a raid, but I don't think they should be able to fully tank every event in a current expansion.
No class on the raid will ever be at risk of spot loss as an SK. The only raid role (besides tanking), which we created for ourselves, they took away when they decided to reinvent pulling and mob positioning. Unless you consider kiting.. which silly when you consider we are suppose to be tanks.
Rubbish and not consistent with EQ's history. Warriors tanked boss mobs and Paladins stood in the rear preserving Lay of Hands in case a tank needed it. Ask around - how many years have Warrior been the Raid Boss MT? Almost as long as there have been raids. Warrior Class Description - https://www.everquest.com/classes Warriors are the masters of armed combat and defense, taking the point in battles and going head-to-head with the most dangerous creatures of Norrath. Warriors are a melee class with the ability to wear plate armor and wield all types of weapons. Warriors build their strength and stamina to unheard-of levels, making them far hardier than any other class. When combined with their heavy armor and excellent defensive skills, warriors are unmatched in their ability to survive the most brutal battles. Warriors train themselves in the skills of combat, mastering the use of all weapons and tactics. Warriors also learn to taunt their opponents, making themselves the focus of all their enemies' attacks, allowing the less-resilient members of their group to remain safe from harm." [BA: emphasis mine] Brenlo's post in response to an issue in GoD where in one group mission Warriors (and Enchanter charmed mobs) could win and most groups with a Paladin tanking couldn't: "Conor is correct, much of what is asked for by Paladins and SKs is specific to warriors and that will not be changing. Like it or not, warriors are supposed to be and will always be better able to tank than Pallys and SKs. The fact that warriors can tank the harder content in Gates, while the knight classes cannot, does not mean Pallys and SKs are broken, rather that warriors are better tanks and that the content is too challenging. There is supposed to be a disparity between the tanking abilities of warriors and knights. Paladins and SKs want to be able to tank in the single group encounters, and they are right, they should be able to, but not at the expense of other classes. So now a plan is in place to adjust the content so it will still be tough for warriors, while also being achievable for the knight classes. Currently this is our solution. We will not be adding defensive discs or abilities to the knight classes. We will be tuning the content so that it is a challenge for everyone and excludes no one. We want a group to be able to succeed with a warrior, shadow knight or paladin as a tank. We do realize that you have other concerns as well, and the team is looking into them. I hope to have some news for you soon." [BA: emphasis mine] Please note that the content to be adjusted was group content. The argument Knights made was that their reasonable role in a group was group MT and that they ought to be able to tank their own group flags rather than have a Warrior or Enchanter pet tank it for them. This is not an issue in raid content where there are an abundance of not boss mobs and knights regularly tank them along with providing outside of the tank archetype services. Some knights not satisfied with an adjust group content solution (when GoD group content was known to be overtuned) argued that they should get "defensive discs or abilities" in a blatant attempt to convert Warriors from the longstanding Primary Tank into the worst of three hybrid tanks. One who did not choose hybrid and lacked significant OUTSIDE of the tank archetype abilities. As a dev who actually understood these issues once commented: 1. While the increase to 2H bonus chiefly benefits knight they will still do less damage than Rangers, Warriors, and other pure melee. That's one of the costs of having a spellbook. The Warrior role as primary tank will not change. 2. If a class could perform the Warrior role and had a powerful spellbook with abilities outside of that role a person would be crazy to play a Warrior. The threatened Warrior Standown of many years ago was because knights were seriously invading Warrior territory. That plus a few other misunderstandings on the part of SOE necessitated the Guild Summit. (And the sudden Phase 1 Melee Adjustments, remember? I do.) It was not because knights were promised equality with the 100% tank and SOE reneged. Just the opposite.
Appreciate your acknowledgement of my assessment on ability scaling. To your comment on Mantle / Carapace, they both have relatively low caps. I play a Shadowknight on Fippy Darkpaw (VoA era, RoF launching shortly). My Rank III Mantle caps at just under 650k health absorbed. That is just 5.0x my fully buffed hp in nearly full Tier 4 raid gear. Needless to say, Mantle gets chewed through pretty quickly when our targets hit for 27k - 30k. Carapace's cap is roughly 50% of Mantle.
Unmatched does not mean only. It means simply that - unmatched. Also, better does not mean only. It means simply that - better. If the knights need extra healing compared to a war, then the war is still unmatched. It is still better. If the knight is more likely to be one-rounded compared to a war, then once again, the war is still better. And the simple fact is with these changes, a war will still be the best choice for MTing raid mobs. Wars will still have 10-20k (or more) HPs above knights as a buffer, and will have better tools for tanking the hardest hitting mobs. These changes do not, in any way, reduce a war's position as the best option for MTing on raids.
The hit point advantage is so laughable that it shouldn't even be mentioned. It's less than a group mob hits one time for. You underestimate knights' passive healing alone if you think warriors will still be head and shoulders above us. What events in TBM can't you tank in? There are enough events in TBM that two or three of the bosses *shouldn't* be able to be fully tanked by knights.
I demand accommodations because I can't hit buttons as fast as most people. How about stronger pet tanks that don't have to hit buttons?
