February 2016 Patch Preview

Discussion in 'News and Announcements' started by Roshen, Feb 4, 2016.

  1. Silv Augur

    And you'll still have it? :confused:

    Again, confused where other classes receiving improvements remotely suggests they will be the same or better than warriors currently are at their 'unmatched survivability', etc.
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  2. Aurmoon Augur

    Since your first statement was a (somewhat) passive attack against me, I feel the need to defend myself. So:

    Yes, the refresh time for insult is 16 seconds compared to the SK refresh which is half that. Furthermore, the hate component is higher for SKs than warriors. Neither of this has a material influence on the value of the skill though. The value of snap aggro is in its ability to get a freshly spawned mob to attack the offtank before it rushes the MT or the healers. And unless you're in a situation in which swarms of adds are appearing faster than every 16 seconds, the only value in casting it a second time is to build additional hate. Last time I checked neither knights nor warriors have an issue holding aggro.

    Stormstrike Blades indeed has a 45 second recast. The SK spell has a 30 second recast. I'd gladly sacrifice 15 seconds of recast if you made the SK version instant cast instead of 3.0 seconds (reduced to 1.5). But my point here isn't about which one is better, they are both situational, and they both allow the tank to get AE aggro. This goes to my underlying point: While warriors don't have "spell books," they do have abilities that enable them to accomplish the same job, even if not every mechanism is identical between knights and warriors.

    In conclusion: I don't like when people attempt to compare classes' abilities without acknowledging that certain differences have zero impact on functionality.
  3. Aurmoon Augur

    Given your steadfast devotion and reliance on class descriptions, I've taken the liberty to go back and read all class descriptions to better understand the adjustments that need to take place to ensure DBG does not deviate from the vision.

    Description: Rogues are sneaky fighters who always seek to take advantage of enemies by attacking from behind.
    Translation: Rogues should no longer be able to do frontal DPS. Rogues can henceforth only damage enemies from behind.

    Description: Warriors are a melee class with the ability to wear plate armor and wield all types of weapons.
    Translation: Warriors need to be able to wield hand-to-hand weapons and knight weapons. Any weapon designated for CLR/DRU/SHM or WIZ/NEC/ENC/MAG needs to also include WAR as warriors can wield all types.

    Description: Haste spells are also the domain of the enchanter, providing incredible boosts in attack speed for members of their group.
    Translation: Non-enchanters should not be permitted to cast haste spells as they are the enchanter's domain. Furthermore, enchanters' haste boost members of their group. Anyone not grouped with the enchanter should lose the benefit of the enchanter's haste.

    Description: To aid in their constant search for power, wizards have also perfected the art of teleportation, allowing them to instantly transport themselves and their allies to the most remote corners of Norrath and beyond.
    Translation: Cast time on all wizard teleportation spells should be zero. Wizards should also be able to teleport themselves and their groups to absolutely anywhere, so binding restrictions should not apply to a wizard.

    Description: Shadowknights are deadly opponents who use evil spells to slow and cripple their enemies. When needed, Shadowknights use their powerful harm touch ability to greatly damage their opponents.
    Translation: Shadowknights need to be given the ability to slow and cripple any target. Furthermore, Harmtouch needs to greatly damage opponents. I'd say 50,000,000 dmg per cast should be sufficient.
    Silv likes this.
  4. Angahran Augur

    If you want your class description, how about us getting ours ? HT hasn't been 'powerful' for probably 10 years (fighting grey con mobs does not count).

    Having warriors as the preferred tank is fine, it's having them as the only viable tank that is the issue.

    p.s. hmm, I can't seem to find our slow spell.....
  5. Randragon Augur

    This thread turned into a scene from Steven Seagal Movie 'Out for Justice'. Remember when Richie was in the car with his crew and they were talking about the mouse. Only insert the word Warrior or Knight in place of mouse.
    Basically Richie ends up saying enough about the Effing Mouse!!!

  6. Repthor Augur

    i dont really care about this fight but id say this Slow enemys can be same as slowing them down aka snare. and i know u got a boat load of them even aas .
  7. Gyurika Godofwar Augur

    Silv! You responded to "He Who Shall Not Be Named!" You know you're not supposed to engage him here or you'll never hear the end of it! :p:D
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  8. Silv Augur

    It's like a car wreck in real life... even though you know it's horrible, you can't look away.
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  9. Gnomeland Augur

    What, exactly, do Warriors lack in the solo/molo/group game these days, that you think knights have in abundance, and which is actually important enough to be a "carrot"?

    I've taken on many roles in my time in Everquest. I've grouped, I've raided - as DPS, healer, *and* tank, I've soloed, I've moloed, and I've boxed. It is from the last perspective that this issue becomes especially obvious to me, because in terms of min/max boxing, it used to be that I wouldn't give Warriors another look due to how little benefit they brought to the grouping game, and how knights ran circles around them when tanking group content and allowing groups to do what they weren't able to do with a Warrior.

    But today? Today we live in the age of Pain Doesn't Hurt, Shield Specialization, Brace for Impact, and Defensive on a 10 minute cool down. Today we live in a world where Shadow Knight solo has been nerfed to the ground and the only reason Warriors molo worse than Paladins is because of the latter's use of wizard mercenaries + stun abuse. Were we to use the classic tank + cleric mercenary set up, then Warriors are actually the best of the three in molo because they have the best passive DPS and damage mitigation, the latter of which leads to the mercenary not panic healing every other hit and improving kill speed because the warrior never has to rest for mana/stamina due to the bulk of the DPS coming from passive attacks.

    Sure, Paladins are still above Warriors in terms of over all group utility due the fact that they can cure and help with heals, and I could see why the Paladins in this thread are sort of scared because it's obvious making them equal raid tanks with warriors would actually overpower them, but the fact remains that Warriors are now 1) a fine choice for group content, in fact the best for boxes because you could just pop 1-2 abilities and sit there for 99% of group content 2) the only tanks capable of dealing with the toughest content and 3) an effective molo class, where tanks are concerned. No tank class is an effective solo class today, so that's not even a big deal because with the experience nerf on all content before CoTF, all tanks are forced to molo for experience to begin with.

    So now, when I ask myself, "which tank ought to I run for my box group," the answer is just about certainly one of Warrior/Paladin. And between the two, Warriors are obviously the raid favorite tanks, so that's two domains of the game in which Warriors are equal/above the other classes unless you're talking about a full-time played Paladin, in which case there are trade offs ie the Paladin can help heal & cure, but the Warrior can tank harder content with less gear. Solo experience is worthless, and the new old raids have too many mechanics for solo, so at the end of the day, you're left with a situation where Paladins >= Warriors > Shadow Knights for groups, and Warriors >>> Paladins >> Shadow Knights for raids, and that's all Everquest offers. Guess which class any logical person is going to make?

    From where I'm standing, Warriors have no basis for saying, today, that their only "carrot" is their main tank role in raids. Warriors are the go to tanks for boxing groups, the easiest tank class to get up and going into relevant content due to the combination of Pain Doesn't Hurt + Defensive + higher health & armor reducing the need for gear, and an okay molo class albeit not the fastest due to wizard mercenary abuse, but that's off set by the fact that Warriors actually need much less experience than other tank classes to "max out." On top of this, they are the best raid tanks and cannot be replaced in raids, unlike basically every other class in the game except for Clerics and Enchanters. You'd think we were back to 1999.

    Do Warriors have issues that need to be addressed? Sure. I could see the Specializations changed to be less one-sided and higher DPS for Warriors being a positive development. I could also see the need to balance certain Knight abilities to account for their increased mitigation. But for Warriors to sit here and tell me that the class has no value outside of raid tanks, that, as an example, the Shadow Knight's ability to pull in today's game where you could pull just about any dungeon/adventure with a Warrior is a huge advantage, that just makes me think that they're not living in the present.

    In short: Warriors are the best tanks in Everquest currently unless you don't raid at all, in which case Paladins are slightly above them. Shadow Knights, on the other hand, are worthless **** who can't even swarm to dry their tears. This is called "balance."
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  10. Lianeb Augur

    Are you serious? Cause I can't tell if you are, or just playing fanboy.
    I can find probably 20 recent posts on this board that suggests tanks for boxing crews SK > Pal > War.

    But i guess you should be able to swarm as an SK to be desired according to you
  11. Dre. Augur

    That would be combat self-healing.
    Better example below:
    This is the reason Warriors are Warriors. It's the reason Warrior abilities are what they are and it's the "carrot" (A reason to roll the class in the first place, and a motivator to push forward and advance toward endgame).

    So, if Warriors weren't that, the class identity would be something else and the class abilities would reflect it. I'm not entirely sure what that something else would be, considering the above is exactly what the class description reflects. "Laziest box tank" isn't going to replace "unmatched survivability" on everquest.com/classes.
    One might suggest this all illustrates consistent, designed intent.
    I don't see anyone suggesting this.
    And here I think is what brings us back to the current changes. I agree SK's need their "carrot" too, but the answer isn't to snatch it from Warriors out of desperation, and share it with Paladins, who already have theirs. Three identities are better than one, and there's room for three.
  12. wingz-83 Augur

    The bottom line is it's none of our fault's. People in this thread are blaming each other for class envy etc, None of that matters, it just makes you feel better to try and find a scapegoat as to why a change is happening. The devs are gonna do what they want good or bad and we have to live with the consequences if you still plan on playing this game. If I was super jazzed about getting stuff it wouldn't change the devs choices one way or the other. They wouldn't stop and go..oh wingz is totally for this idea, give him more. Conversely, if I was super against this idea it wouldn't change the reality of what happens one way or the other...they wouldn't go..oh wingz is against this idea we better not do it.
    What they are doing is they are making us aware of what they are planning to do (not just ..oh here it's in place with no warning...though short notice..) so we can figure out how to live with it.

    When a game is in decline, one of the things done is giving away the store to keep people playing. (Of course 24-36 man raids wouldn't hurt either...)
  13. beryon Augur


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  14. Krazzi Elder

    First off, the SK Unholy Guardian disc.... half the time it doesnt work, i click it and it instantly goes off.

    If they gave Sks 30%mitigation from defensive proficiency that stacks with 5% innate mitigation, that's already better than our discs we have now, cause it doesnt have a cap. There would be no reason to ever click mantle(35%) or carapace(20%).

    I think they are considering giving knights Two-handed proficiency cause they wanted SKs to do more dps.They could have just giving us higher level necro dots, instead of the level 50 necro dots we have now. But they couldnt do that, because if they give SKs more dps, paladins will want more dps, so they picked Two-Handed proficiency. I solo with my 2hander out for more dps, so i hope it's not passive, cause i dont want to lose dodge, parry and block while soloing.

    Warriors keep talking about Reaver's Bargain, it's not as good as it sounds. Besides the high endurance cost, 750 end per second, and when it fades at 20%, it drains all your remaining end and mana.It also has a damage cap of 1,500,000. With reaver's bargain running

    25,000 damage would be 24,000 ( 4% less damage)
    35,000 damage would be 27,412 (21% less damage)
    45,000 damage would be 29,897 (33% less damage)
    55,000 damage would be 32,362 (41% less damage)

    And if you use a disc at the same time, it takes reaver's bargain off first, so the disc only takes off a very small amount. Yeah if a mob is hitting for 100k it will be a higher mitigation, but it'll be hitting hard enough to make you go unconscious, and then the mob kills your cleric. Then someone else heals you, then it hits you again and your unconscious again and it kills them. etc

    IMO they could have just beefed up Guardian, Mantle, and Carapace a few % and took off the damage caps, and be done with it.

    Any way warriors and SKs shouldnt be arguing, we should be working together,....... to get the paladins nerfed :)
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  15. Triconix Augur

    I'll patiently await the changes and see what they do, however, there are MANY things to consider.

    If (and I hope this is a big IF) the proficiency is a copy/paste of the warrior one, then your guardians will be pointless to use and here's why:

    Stack proficiency with mantle and carapace/influence and you'll essentially be mitigating more damage than the warrior running LS. Couple that with your self healing - which now remains unaffected since you're not using unholy - and you would be breathing down the warrior's necks in terms of tank efficiency.

    For a pally, use proficiency with mantle and ardency/penitence and you'll have the same mitigation as a SK, more than a war running LS. Then your healing is even more powerful than an SK, giving you even more of an advantage.

    The only saving grace for warrior's would be their Dichotomic which isn't exactly efficient and only lasts roughly 30 seconds every 5 minutes.

    Essentially, you'd destroy warriors anything outside of MTing raid mobs and it wouldn't even be close. I see the argument of "well, the group game doesn't matter" but this allows you to solo much more efficiently, swarm better, and function better within a group with all your utility. Overall, you'll be appreciated more. Inviting a warrior would be a charity. It wouldn't be to maximize a group's efficiency. And that's regardless of skill. Knights would just be a better tank at a fundamental level.

    Even when MTing a raid boss, you would be equal, if not very close, to a warrior. And in certain circumstances, you would be superior.
  16. Makavien Augur

    You have to consider all points of the game being balanced not just raids . Come on you see I said we need both types of weapons single target and rune why do you think I put that in there .

    And I just would like to know the Defensive prof % then we can calm down some communication about these types of changes would be nice.

    And then to the 2 hand prof are we as warriors going to get higher ratio weapons to match knight 2 handers ?
  17. Zarzac Augur

    I can't possibly imagine what warriors must be feeling right now. What they are facing if all their worst fears come true with these changes.

    I mean worst case scenario raid guilds may only want 1 or 2 warriors on the roster.
    Even if you play your class perfect, you'd know that it could have been done better by the other two tanks.
    Not being able to efficiently tank raid mobs, and doing minimal dps, you would yearn for any type of raid utility to help out your guild mates.
    Most of your server-wide friends may leave the game as your class doesn't really have a raid function.
    You may actually start hoping that raid mobs hit too hard for anyone to tank and come in multiples. If new raids were set up that way, maybe you can have a raid purpose by getting aggro on these extra mobs and running around in circles for sometimes hours at a time, anything to do something to actually help the raid.

    Yeah, I can't possibly imagine the fear of facing all that for my class.

    I feel for you guys.
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  18. Makavien Augur

    Because they are similar abilities the sneer line has always been more about the mitigation and less about the hate generation.
    And knights tank most of the same things we do right now so /shrug
  19. Warpeace Augur

    Why would Daybreak give knights a defensive Proficiency that would be better than our current defensive disks? There would be zero reason to ever click off the Defensive Proficiency, and might as well make it innate. The Defensive proficiency like your warrior version needs to be good enough to warrant use but not outclass your / our actual defensive disks so they are still preferred for use in tanking.

    Does Defensive Proficiency stack for Warriors? If it doesn't there is no reason for it to stack for Knights.

    Knights Can only have one Discipline running at a time so there is no way to stack what your listing.

    Again its an assumption and has zero to be based off until its actually happens. However if Warriors get to stack how can you say Knights should not be allowed to?

    Does the Warrior community really believe the Dev team is going to just roll out this patch and kick Warriors straight of the top of the hill past the valley and into a pit? Why keep trying to create doomsday scenarios? Go back and read what they stated the intention was. Lets see what they actually roll out and if its even worth using and if either Warriors need a boost, the new knight abilities get reduced or Daybreak says I like it right where it is.
  20. Triconix Augur

    You must not be in very many burn groups. Mobs come in at a much more rapid pace than 16 seconds. Plus people generate much more aggro than 1 simple insult cast. Heck, even insult and roar combined doesn't hold aggro until a mob is dead in a span of > 10 seconds. Granted a person will live in that time, it doesn't look good when a warrior has to use insult, roar, and a longer (30+ seconds) ability to hold aggro. And that's if they're being smart and using an instant clicky like the rot stick to clear hate override before using insult/roar. Meanwhile an SK can cast this ability twice before the mob is dead, generating over double the aggro a warrior can. So you still remain somewhat wrong.

    Your spells are also a much longer range. So you could cast it once and cast it again once the mob is in camp. Warriors cannot. Then you can cast it mid fight. Essentially, you'd cast it 3 times before a warrior can cast theirs twice. You'd create triple the aggro of warriors and this isn't even considering the array of spells you also can cast with short re-use timers.

    Meanwhile a warriors aggro abilities range from 16 seconds to 10 minutes. We just don't have enough aggro on fast reuse abilities to maintain aggro on speed groups.

    Warriors have no problems holding aggro and locking one mob down. But when it comes to fast kills, pulls and lots of mobs, we are outclassed with ease to an SK.

    But I'm fine with that. It doesn't bother me. I just hate when people think they know more about a class they don't play.

    If you referenced our defensive AE aggro buff (I'm having a brain fat and cannot remember it's name), then you may have a point. But that only lasts 2 minutes (?) out of every 5 and the mobs have to be actively hitting you for it to do anything. Essentially, it works better the more mobs are in camp hitting me.

    Which again reminds me. Stop bringing up instant casts. Warriors have no channeling. We need instant or else we would never be able to cast anything. Why is that difficult to understand?
    I'm well aware of this. I know how the combat ability bar works. I was speaking in terms of using one of those discs + proficiency. That would give you 50-65% mitigation. A warrior with LS and lets say a BFI proc is getting a max of 61% (BFI isn't 100% uptime). So more realistically it's LS + Vie which is 55%. We could again stack our bp/bravery but again the bp is 45 seconds every 5 minutes and bravery is 20 minutes for 45 hits. You could essentially cast repel every 30 seconds with Vizat's Skin (SK) up after mantle/carapace is done and that would still mitigate more damage than any of our secondary abilities stacked with proficiency.

    I never said the devs are going to do anything. I'm waiting to hold judgement. However, I'm bringing up a MAJOR issue that has to be addressed or recognized, which is exactly what the knights are not doing. You keep saying that you'll still be worse, but basic math says otherwise.

    Looking at prof and guardian separately, guardian is better. But then you have to take account what stacks with what. Do you really trust the devs at this point? I'm patiently waiting to cry the sky is falling, but I'm making it well known the potential issues that could arise.

    Knights are constantly forgetting warriors without proficiency. There was a 5-10 year period where the drop off outside LS was incredible to the point where warriors just rotated LS. We went from having 45% mitigation to 1.5 minutes of 14-15% mitigation and another 9 minutes of nothing but cleric vies which are 10%.

    Knights, before proficiency, were better at mitigation than warriors outside of LS. That was why they were introduced.