Everything is overtuned

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Regazozo, Dec 12, 2018.

  1. Gnomereaper Augur

    There's a point between "World of Warcraft difficulty" and "Gates of Discord" Vext/Tipt era difficulty that's a fine line to balance and often subjective numerically. I have played and completed Gates of Discord in both group content and raid content during the time when it was live. It was brutal to the casual player base, and as a cleric in Kod'taz I'd get tells all the time about not having a flag or something and "needing to go help a guildie." Problem isn't the first five guildmates, it's the next 15 of them on a mission that took a few hours to do each time. That was "bad design."

    You mean Lceanium and Frontier Mountains or Shard's Landing. Those are entry level zones that provide relative challenges without necessarily undermining the sense of challenge. Frontier Mountains is the best designed zone for the mid point of an expansion because it takes out a lot of drawbacks in the system of Everquest by stripping out time sinks and focusing directly on the mission and storylines with great and interesting rewards and fun quests.

    Scorched Woods progression is hated because of the amount of faction switching, it's a time sink and relative to the time sink there's not much of a reward. It's also not like you're really choosing sides, you switch sides during the storyline as needed.

    Faction in Everquest is best done what it was like in Velious. You had three factions, and each faction offered different content and new benefits. I would argue, though, that Velious faction took too long to build up and should have been made swifter to swap around.

    The least restrictive was the Plane of War factioning where mobs gave faction and the tokens and quests for faction were there too.The faction went one way and that was it.

    I just don't like "faction dancing" and the time requirements it takes to accomplish that. There's no real challenge in it and detracts away from the sense of adventure and scale.

    Skyfire is known as "Skyfail" because of the drakes are out of combat range for people to attack and the AE effects do not allow for people to drill in one area and must move constantly. In a game where "camping" is ordinary in static zones by design this is bad design by forcing players to do what they don't want to do and aren't accustomed to doing. It is essentially fighting human nature. Now, Overthere is good however the nameds again are overtuned relative to difficulty as there is a large jump between Frontier Mountain and Overthere for content.

    Veeshan's Peak is a well designed zone, because well it's supposed to be Veeshan's Peak the end game and end goal for Ring of Scale expansion. We have fought with the Combine Empire and now we must face Talendor in the 12 man group mission to ensure peace for the rise of the New Combine Empire. Tsaph is our buddy, we know this character and we fought along aside him. We also have some really awesome quests to do and what not. It's difficult, because it is the end game and it is the end of the story.

    Stratos, however, isn't "end game." It is the beginning of a new tale, and some people haven't finished the original story in Veeshan's Peak and do not have Veeshan Peak gear. They lived in easier content and skipped over "group end game." This is any fault of ours? Not really, but that's just reasons. People want a place like Lceanium, Frontier Mountains, or to a lesser extent Overthere. There's a segment of the player base that only does certain zones. And that's the vast majority of them.

    As a raider, I also do not want every single mission to be hard as nails once it's been solved. I do not want to spend 4 hours of an evening doing one single mission and having to do that mission for everyone, their dog, their cat, their whatever.

    Gradually scaling up difficulty overtime then when you hit end game it "feels like end game." If you want a feel for this play through Velious in the old era or The Serpent Spine expansion. You see a really interesting "feel" for the game. You know in Great Divide there's a war going on from day one, but it's not until you see the Avatar of War and the Ring War what's really going on. Now for the Dragons, when you see North Temple of Veeshan you know that's really end game. When you awaken the Sleeper you know you just beat Velious. It's that feel for the game and sense of scale that's missing when you make Tier one too hard.

    Not everyone did the Coldain quest lines or beat the raid mobs, but eventually even years later people still do the 10 Rings War because it's fun. Now do people do Skyfire for fine? Not really, they just rush around and try to move around and dodge the worst of it. The Parrot Aug is something people still do. Yes it's a long quest, but people still have done it. Those are what attracts people back to old content, however I just don't see people running back doing Vext/Tipt for the memories. To be honest, I don't even see people doing Breakdown in Communications anymore, either.

    COTF had some well designed zones such as Dead Hills, while they were nerfed people still do them. We need Dead Hills and the Frontier Mountains of the game, people just want to have fun and don't want to feel the frustration that goes with "hardcore gaming." I'm a full advocate for Veeshan Peak zones, but we cannot have an expansion like that. I played in the Veeshan's Peak expansion, and Gates of Discord wasn't something people like in general. Out of the entire expansion for myself, I only enjoyed Kod'taz. That's it, and I've completed BiC and the raid content. I far preferred Citadel of Anguish for raid content, and far preferred the scaling difficulty and various radial artistic design for Omens of War, the epic 2.0's, and especially what I consider the most beautiful zone in the game Riftseekers Sanctum.

    Trials of Smoke are Plane of Justice trials all over again with a better rewards system, but again those bottle necks and such have to be watched. I mean really watched, people don't like being stuck at the beginning while their friends are doing the "cool stuff."

    I watched that with Kod'taz and it just divides people. I watched that with Plane of Justice. It just divides people. I remember a shaman who did Plane of Justice for a number of weeks just brutally failed, until the top guild on the server just took her through. It was nice of them to do, but in all honesty it was something that should not have been necessary.

    I really don't want to see Plane of Justice divide the community again, nor have Vxed/Tipt again ever as a raider. I don't play the game to repeat the same content over and over. I play to progress myself and have the different aspects of my play style appealed to. Yes, I love Veeshan's Peak, but I don't want to go to Veeshan's Peak everyday.
    Caell, enclee, Shanarias and 15 others like this.
  2. Ghubuk Augur

    One thing I don't understand is people against tuning the trials down somewhat. It doesn't need a huge overhaul, but some of the mechanics just need to be a little more forgiving. Most people don't want a cake walk but they at least want a chance to beat it.
    Shanarias, Elyssanda, Graves and 6 others like this.
  3. Mintalie Augur

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  4. Bamboompow Augur

    As a casual player who occasionally raids, I am not quite sure why I bought TBL. Considering there are still tons left to do even in EoK (or even TBM) and my experiences with VP consist of finishing the key after almost a year and then just zoning in just to say I did. It seems counterproductive to spend money on content most players will quickly surpass me on. It happens every year, though. I buy an expac and then it just languishes until I can actually handle playing in it. Apparently its still fun or I would stop?

    This expansion has the same issues all EQ expacs have. you MUST have a consistent schedule and group. If you do not have the ability to check that box, its not a case of being screwed but being subject to a fair amount of backtracking/redundancy and never having a steady group dynamic. Thus having to wait for the hardcore people to push alts through or wait for other casuals to reach that point. Raid gear, the Getgud.com crowd or perhaps just having absolutely NO RL responsibilities tend to get things done fast no matter what. They do things once and don't tend to look back. For the rest of us, yah, we have to wait for the dumb downs that invariably come. That is once those that demand challenge have been sated and to stave off the torches and pitch forks crowd of those who bought a game they can't play due to it being tuned for the elite.

    I did a few trials. Won one of them but failed another. Plenty have probably gotten past them by now already in the elite guilds. Good for them. My tactic will be once again to just spend more time in old content since fewer people will be around in it.
    Stiku likes this.
  5. Maedhros High King

    You guys are just going to whine that there is not enough content after you force them to nerf it.
    FawnTemplar and took2summit11 like this.
  6. Spellfire Augur

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  7. dwish Augur

    This seems to happen every expansion release now. Sometime during the first week of release, a vocal group of players comes onto the boards stating the expansion is too difficult and it needs to be re-tuned. I distinctly remember the exact thread going back at least two expansions. I'm pretty sure next expansion, regardless of the difficulty, there will be players stating it's too hard for whatever reason.

    The expansion is only six zones. It's not large. It's supposed to last an entire year. Being unable to beat tier 1 in the first day or two is not that big of a deal. Maybe try getting all the new AAs, or devise new strategies/try different group combinations? I still can't believe people are ready to give up after two days.

    That said, I don't care if they nerf the difficulty or not. I just don't think it's ever going to be easy enough for some of the people on this thread, no matter how much they tone down the content.
  8. Ngreth Thergn Developer

    We are looking at reducing the general Base NPC melee damage and health. We are likely to reduce the saves as well. I have no exact ETA.

    This will affect general basepop, rares, and most mission NPC's, and raid basepop, but not necessarily all. Some NPC's get hand tuned stats... and this change will not affect them. This change will not alter raid bosses and raid adds with hand-tuned values (the majority are hand tuned)

    We understand that some folks like it hard, but we believe that it should be at least somewhat more accessible.
    Thunderkiks, Nniki, Niknik and 14 others like this.
  9. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    Because they are T1 raids, they are supposed to be reasonable difficulty!
    I believe each and every one of those guilds tested them in beta and had a strat ready to go when it went live. They did all their dying and tactics experiments in beta.

    Group players could have done the same in the group game if they wished.
    Slippry and Maedhros like this.
  10. Yimin Augur

    As long as my merc cleric does not die to almost every dot ill be a happy girl :D

    Stiku, Graves and Khazad like this.
  11. took2summit11 Augur

    This is unfortunate to hear, seeing as I’ve already tanked pretty much all of Stratos progression in EOK armor and 16k AAs.
  12. Horyuken Augur

    For people who can't get a solid group adding Dot and Spell shield 60-70% to merc items would help with their ability to live and be effective. They have no AI to combat dots or cure certain ailments, move out of range, or just have half a clue.
    Daedly and Yimin like this.
  13. NeverPayForLag Augur

    Thanks. That is urgently needed.
    Balance is heavily missing.

    Gnomereaper expressed all I think very well.

    Entry zone -> middle difficulty -> high difficulty/challenge should be there instead of a big slap right from the start and then easier stuff later.

    And if somebody thinks that an expansion is beaten fast only because it is tuned down: that may be true for some ubah people or the cheaters who use 3rd party software to beat it.
    I still miss Veeshans Peak because of the darn Skyfire Mission - after 1 year. For me, RoS was definitely a tick too hard (and I talk mainly about the Missions). It is not fun to spent evening after evening and hour after hour wiping and loosing XP while no real progression is visible. If somebody has no job or life - perhaps - but this lack of empathy helps nobody, very clearly obvious in some posts.

    I beat Caccticcii with some good ideas and help. Instead of complaining how easy everything is (which is clearly not for everybody) it would have helped more to describe how you got through some of tasks.

    But people who have a too big Ego will never understand that. Like in real life, egomaniac people will see what they loose or destroy if it is too late. If some here try to insult others because they have a life they should think about that. Perhaps you have some to group with. Or perhaps you don't need that either.. who knows...
    Stiku and Yimin like this.
  14. NeverPayForLag Augur

    I don't believe any word you say. This is a blunt lie.
    In the back a complete raid group who is backing you up and spamming rune/heals all the way?
    With some kind of 3rd party tool or cheats?
    Which class needs the nerf?

    Stiku, Pirlo and Yimin like this.
  15. LostSoul Journeyman

    Elyssanda likes this.
  16. took2summit11 Augur

    1 healer merc actually, we had an ench in the group that was running/cc’ing..not really sure what else to tell you bro. EVERYONE in the group was group geared mostly with ROS, I was the worst geared to be clear, but I was also the tank.

    Editing my post since i saw you edit yours. I am a paladin, arguably the worst of the 3 tank classes. What’s even more comical is that you instantly call me a cheat instead of believing me. It really is sad how bad people are at this game and cry uncle until the devs come and nerf everything for everyone else. I’ve also tanked every named in HS on the paladin, and multiple people here can attest to that. Not sure if anyone in my group for Stratos plays forumquest or not.
  17. Yimin Augur

    My J5 healer Merc kept dying to dots , and when he was busy healing himself the group started dying off ! So tell me why your merc kept ticking cause id love to know ?

    Stiku and Pirlo like this.
  18. bigpapa Augur

    try it I would like to know how well you did beating *only* one of the trials, duo.....zones are locked .

    it took us ( well geared raiders and aa's from 25k to 40k ) 6 hours of wiping to be able to win our 1st trial there. group was { shaman , cleric , paladin , warrior , ranger and wizzy } and we raid since many years , not new to the raiding

    ahh yeah I know, some will say ** suck less * like as usual * , I am all fine to have great challenge , but not in entry zone ? is there a problem with top guilds to have the tier one zone that hard and saying that is fine ? ( trials ), to block those who box ( 4 for me ) . wish I didn't buy TBL for them , they will have to stay in the entry zone only. ... if there is another expansion next year , I will not make the same mistake , and buy only one newish expansion for my raiding shm.

    DB don't seem to care much about boxers who give them a lot of $$$..................
    Stiku and Corwyhn Lionheart like this.
  19. took2summit11 Augur

    Paladins have an excessive amount of group heal procs between AAs and harmonious. I honestly never once paid a thought to my merc. Maybe paladins are going to become the new flavor of the week with this expansion? Would be nice..

    I am going to go out on a limb and guess the vast majority of people complaining about this expansion are people trying to pet tank. Why do you think you should be able to tank, heal, and dps all in one class? (Mage). I am all for pet tanking, but pets should NOT be able to tank current content progression. Pet tanks should be an alternative when there are no other options and you can still get some xp flowing and kill a few select nameds.
  20. FawnTemplar Augur

    I agree with this assessment. My group wiped a couple times and we had a raid druid and a raid cleric healing almost non-stop. Our group make -up was SK, MNK, DRU, CLR, BER, RNG