Evader's Invisibility

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Vumad, Jan 11, 2020.

  1. Vumad Augur

    I was going to post in the caster section but I think a lot of other classes other than ENC utilize evader's invisibility.

    The problem in ToV is that evader's invis is only invis, no IVU, so when we evade, we are just getting aggro again. Evader's invis really needs an update to be a dual invis.

    Yinla, RPoo, Fanra and 1 other person like this.
  2. Xianzu_Monk_Tunare Augur

    And? That's been the case for fade lines from the start. What you actually need to do is to not fade when you're near the mob and do it when you are out of agro range the mobs.
    Drpeppa likes this.
  3. Karthos Augur

    I agree with the OP. With the recent nerfing of this ability to every 10 mins for classes like ranger there is no reason this shouldn't be fixed to always work when needed even on undead mobs. To be fair to undead invis classes perhaps a fixed invis along with a 2 or 3 tick undead invis would be a good solution.
  4. Vumad Augur

    Well, if that were the intent, then evader's invisibility wouldn't exist at all. Clearly the design is for the ability to allow escape from combat and prevent re-entry into combat. So, yes, that has been the case for fade lines from the start, and from the start not having to be out of aggro range has always been in the design, it just exempted any undead component.

    I will adjust my play style to account for this expansion causing an ability to not be usable in all but the entirety of the content, but to argue that I should be out of aggro range to use it is not accurate. It's not an issue for me. My life will continue without a change. But logically, a change should not just occur, it should already exist.

    I don't think you are going to like what I have to say here, but I think only classes that get IVU should have evaders IVU. If Clerics or Pally get evaders, they should get IVU but not invis. The ability should proc 2 buffs, like the bard song but for other classes with only one type of invis only that one. Also, evader's is permanent as is the Invis and IVU on all classes that get AA invis/IVU, so if evader's IVU were added it should be as permanent as the regular invis.
  5. Tappin Augur

    When they updated the fade AA lines, the issue with proximity was supposed to be removed. I think this should be looked into. Maybe a temporary SOS type invisibility (combined with a regular) to give the caster time to get away.
  6. Wulfhere Augur

    It seems like you missed the long discussion last Fall.

    Preview of Upcoming Changes to Combat Escape AA Abilities

    The down shot is that DBG knew they were making a mostly undead expansion while they were designing these changes. Therefore DBG did not want classes that lack IVU to evade anything out of character and archetype. I observed then that ...

  7. Vumad Augur

    I can agree with your points. This is a very logical argument. However, I think that the changes from 20% to 8% mana for ENC shows that there is room for adjustment to the abilities.

    Clerics and paladins get a permanent IVU. They should get Evader's Undead invisibility which should stack with Evader's Temporary Sanctuary. No reason for it to have a duration.

    BRD, ENC, MAG, NEC, SK and WIZ get both types of invis with unlimited duration. They should have evader's invisibility and evaders invisibility to undead.

    DRU, RNG (not sure about SHM) get permanent invis but not IVU, they should get Evader's Invisibility.

    Actually, I'm not sure why PAL and War would get Evader's Temp Sanctuary. That doesn't make much sense.

    DRU, CLR and SHM (priests) should be the only ones getting sanctuary. Zerkers and tanks should not.

    BST should get whatever monks get. If something in the game lore justifies invis / IVU for them, then so be it.

    Zerker's can't invis at all, so they shouldn't get any invis (as is current). Maybe that's why they get sanctuary? They should just drop aggro and use a potion.

    My point is, fades should match the abilities of the class that is using the fade.
  8. Tappin Augur

    I still think everyone should get 1 tic duration SoS + whatever class abilities. Most timers are on a long duration, so they should work. Not just be a waste of a hotkey.
  9. Inga Elder

    These classes have both invis, but only Brd has double invis ability.

    After FD, stand and instant invis sometimes fails, but you will be able to do same thing with fade and instant invis/ivu ability.
    Xianzu_Monk_Tunare likes this.
  10. Xianzu_Monk_Tunare Augur

    There was never an update to the Fade AA lines, only nerfs.
  11. Xianzu_Monk_Tunare Augur

    Actually, being out of range has always been part of it. At the inception of the Evader's Invisibility buffs, you have had to be out of range of the monsters with agro on you before the buff would even be allowed to land on you, if you were too close you'd drop but not get the buff, and that was even stated in the description. The Fade lines have always been intended for you to be out of reagro range. That hasn't changed.

    The ability hasn't changed in how it works or what it does. The only thing that has changed is that for some classes you actually have to use mana/endurance where you didn't previously. There is no need for a change, and it should not ever have existed. You're simply wanting a free way to get IVU. You should at least be honest about it.

    There's no reason for anyone to get some theoretical Evader's IVU. Invis is so prolific in EQ, everyone has been able to easily obtain and afford instant cast invis for over 15 years now. That is half the reason why there even is an Invis component to the Fades, the other being that it was originally an accidental by-product of transferring the Bard Fade to other classes when Monks got our version back in OoW. When they decided to dole it out to all the other classes years later, they took the time to nerf the ability to the state it currently is, a buff. The way it had worked for 10+ years for monks was nerfed, then a few years later they were nerfed for everyone, and then again earlier this year they were nerfed again.

    At no point (including now) has there ever been any reason for IVU to be part of Fade. The most common potion for it is player made and has a 1.5 second casting time; with it being player makes it both more expensive and less available than invis. There is a dropped potion, which is an instant cast; however it is dropped by a named in Dagnor's Cauldron with only a single charge; I've not seen it in the Bazaar. Then there are the two all/all clicky items that have IVU on them, and both of them are fairly rare. One drops randomly in a couple of SoF instances, but it has a 15 minute reuse timer. The other one drops from a Vex Thal raid boss, and is rare as all get out, with a 15 second casting time. So IVU is hardly common. And honestly, those classes who get perfected IVU can typically cast that almost immediately after they use Fade without issue. So no real need to give it out.

    You're whole argument is you arguing for the ability to just use the ability all willy nilly, and with no forethought.
    Ravanta Suffer and Lianeb like this.
  12. Vumad Augur

    Well, no, not at all. I already have a free way to get IVU. I cast Perfected Invis To undead. I am an enchanter. Sorry to call you out on your monk bias, but I clearly above stated that the evader's XYZ should only give the ability to invis to the types of invis that the class already has access to. The stories about IVU potions are great and all, but since I play CLR, ENC and MAG, it's all really quite irrelevant to me. I have had IVU since L14 and Perfected IVU AA since L95.

    And willy nilly and no forethought?

    /alt act 1120; Self Stasis
    /pause 182; Pause for stasis fade
    /alt act 280; Group Invis to undead

    There's you're forethought. A simple key that fades, waits for the stasis to wear off and then automatically invis's me. When pathing is bad, I have actually self stasised, friendly stasised and then glanced myself to stay out of combat for well over a minute. If I used glance and flash, I could probably stay out of combat almost indefinitely.

    The only logical argument made here so far is that bards are the only ones that get dual invis. This is infact true, and is a good counter as I made the point that classes should only get the abilities they already have. Since ENC and etc get both types of invis, but they can't stack them, then the correct solution is not to give both on fade, but rather to have an AA that toggles which version of the invis that is received.

    Sidebar, since we are going head to head in a debate atm, I would like to say that you post some very good information, and joking aside your IVU information is good information. While this discussion will end with agreeing to disagree, it is not a reflection of anything less for respect of your knowledge and perspective of the game.
  13. Kimbella Master

    A key that "waits" for stasis to wear off and then automatically invis' you? o_O

    As if we aren't already waiting for 18 seconds staring at the countdown contemplating whether or not we need to click it off early, or to let it go to completion, or deciding whether to re-stasis ourselves immediately upon it fading. Being as we are mezzed and cannot do anything else except wait for it to fade as we consider our options, is it really necessary to make a hotkey to do the waiting and re-invis'ing for you? Just seems a little mindless and excessive is all.
  14. Vumad Augur

    What do you mean we can't do anything else? Self stasis is a buff, not a detrimental spell. Just click it off and continue with your game play.

    The point was a rebuttal to an argument that I lacked "forethought", but you ignored the context. I don't use the above scripted hotkey. It was just an example.
  15. Kimbella Master

    I meant exactly what I said. If you are stasis'd, up until the point you either click it off or it fades on its own, you can't do anything else. Apparently you missed the part about me explaining to you that having a hotkey like that is pointless because 99% of the time you are going to want to click it off early. I know I do.

    I never in any way implied anything about stasis being a "detrimental" spell, not sure how you took that away from anything I said. I think every enchanter knows that while you are stasis'd, you can't do anything else until you click it off yourself or you let it fade.

    There is absolutely zero reason in having a hotkey do the waiting and invis'ing for you. Not sure why you would even provide that as your rebuttal to an argument, and then say you don't even use it? You obviously need to come up with a better rebuttal.

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