EQ suffers from what every other MMO suffers from. Unnecessary complexity.

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Strawberry, Dec 19, 2022.

  1. Strawberry Augur

    Over time, all MMO will suffer from unnecessary complexity. Some are good at mitigating this, some are not.

    While overhauling the ancient EQ UI would be a great long overdue thing, simplifying the way people interact with the game should be the precursor to it. Otherwise you just create a different version of a bloated and clumsy UI.

    When I play a class I haven't played in a while, I am always overwhelmed by the insane amount of spells, abilities, AA, clickies. After a while you don't remember the power of each of these effects, you no longer remember any burn or defensive routines, and which effects stack.

    And this affects the UI, because the UI has to accommodate for all this stuff, and the UI turns into a mess.

    The main two reasons people enjoy TLP is nostaliga, and the hope there will be a thriving community that actually creates a social fabric.

    But, likely a 3rd reason is that the game was much more intuitive to interact with back then, you didn't have this overbearing game that makes you feel you are not in control. You didn't have all these AA, spells, effects, etc.

    This isn't a problem exclusive to EQ, all MMO suffer from this over time. But EQ also hasn't done enough to consolidate those complex interactions. Yes, some things like some AA have been consolidated, and that is a good thing, but it is not nearly enough.
    Waitwhat, Metanis, Shakara and 4 others like this.
  2. Treiln Augur

    Without evolving and adding "complexity", EQ and other MMO's would suffer from what many other MMO's suffer from...dying out early due to stagnation.
  3. Strawberry Augur

    Retroactively consolidating complexity does not have any negative effect on being able to add complexity when designing new content.

    If anything, choosing not to consolidate, actually hinders development of new designs, because it increases developer cost when anything has to change.
    "We can't add A and B, because it would break X and Y."
  4. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    Simple games please people who enjoy simplicity, much like some folks enjoy a busy decorating scheme while others prefer minimalism, neither is objectively better they are preferences.

    However when it comes to game performance simplicity wins hands-down.
    The less things the game needs to check the quicker it gets to the calculating part, the faster it can do the calculating part the quicker the interaction you were expecting to happen can take place.

    Your post is saying in a roundabout way what a bunch of folks have said needs to happen with EQ, stream-lining a lot of the pipe-lines because they are getting slowed down too much or even partially blocked.
    Namely Combat, stats, AA's, Spells, Procs, Pets etc.

    A part of what made gaining 3 strength "impactful" in Early EQ was that was a large percentage of a character's power back then.
    Now we have a game where improvements are largely made in barely perceptible increments that you need a parser to even spot - because there are a vastly larger quanity of things that make up player power.
    This had led to the sense/feel of making "impactful" progress being watered-down, and arguably by so much EQ has lost any discernable sense/feel of getting better. This only compounded by years of no real class development.

    All that said I know raid-lag efforts are ongoing & a UI revamp is something that is already on the dev radar, but removing the "over-complexity" should be part & parcel of that, moving away from the old "just add something" methodology that got the game into today's mess.
    Waitwhat, Metanis, Genoane and 3 others like this.
  5. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    True up to a point, but you can't do that forever without reorganizaion.

    E.G. This image, but in reverse, is what the UI has been doing over the years.

    Fenthen, OldTimer, Vumad and 4 others like this.
  6. Svann2 The Magnificent

    They have been simplifying but its got to be done carefully. I like there are odd bits here and there that you need to learn.
  7. Zunnoab Augur

    They should identify the useless or near useless stuff.

    Pouring thousands of AAs into something should never leave something useless.

    I'll take duration extension on our AE mezzes over boosting an unused song. Battle cleric shouldn't be a joke with so many abilities revolving around it. I'm sure there are dozens if not hundreds of examples

    I should try using the song. I have yet to talk to anyone that does.
    Fenthen and Lyyr like this.
  8. Treiln Augur

    Never said anything against "consolidating" complexity. But adding complexity and consolidating it is a fine line when trying to add them together. Usually consolidating comes in the form of simplifying (which I'm not always against).

    Just saying that if the game is only ever press 1, 2, and 3, making 1, 2, and 3 do 10 times as much while only keeping it at pressing 1, 2, and 3, it doesn't add complexity.

    Some things need to be added on, and I will agree, there does seem to be a lot that can be consolidated and merged into one or fewer things to help ease the bloating that's happened over years of adding things to the game.

    Agree 100%
  9. Lyyr Lorekeeper

    *cough* swift dots *cough*
  10. Joules_Bianchi A certain gnome

    Everquest has a <lot> of content and it's consistent. I have loots older than my kids.

    One person's "Our game doesn't/isn't______________" there are at least a half dozen, "Your game can't".

    EQ was deeper in 1999 than any other a title MMORPG has ever been.

    EQ <players> are deeper than most games denizens. Not all, but on average. Don't see much of this on WoW or ESO forums: https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/ac-breakdown.211691/

    Or discussions on primary and secondary slot damage premitigation, becaue they ain't even got that.

    YES more people can play checkers.

    Chess is a better game, but has a learning curve and takes depth.
    Vumad, Rolaque, Rijacki and 1 other person like this.
  11. Dre. Augur

    We went off the rails when activated AA became 10000 hotbuttons. The disc system has shared timers that rein this in to some degree. Clickies becoming passive was a big step in the right direction.

    We get some love here and there occasionally, but at this point if a combat AA can't be made passive, or shifted to the spell or disc system, we should probably just delete it for everyone's sanity.
    Fenthen likes this.
  12. Hegsheoshed Augur

  13. Heimdall Elder

    In WoW, you can play with one button. You can set up a macro with your preferred order of operations i.e. This Ability first and foremost, that ability only if this ability is on cool down, Third Ability only if both the first two are on cooldown, etc. etc. And to be honest, most of the time, you're still waiting for the first ability to refresh for a heartbeat or two once you've been through the cycle. There's no real choice or oversight necessary. I don't mind a little complexity.
  14. Treiln Augur

    If you go into the class forums you’ll find those sorts of conversations.

    So…EQs mash button that everyone runs? Your entire burn set up in 2 buttons that gets pressed once every 10 minutes, and then your mash button outside of that? EQ can be played with 1 button as well. Having a lot of abilities doesn’t make it complex. It just makes it bloated. There’s not much thought or complexity in EQs abilities (few over lapping issues for the most part).

    It’s just too 4-5 damage abilities over and over and over and use whichever one is refreshed first.
  15. Cadira Augur

    Eq does need to clean up some things, but in general I like complexity. Allows you to separate the good players from the bad.

    No more, "walk up to a mob and turn on auto attack or spam the same nuke over and over" to do the same damage as your friends. If you take the time to master the complexity, you'll blow everyone else out of the water.
  16. Heimdall Elder

    And the Geomancy clicky, and the Mark of the Mage Hunter, Cacophony, Emergency Heal/Mitigation Buttons not part of your burn? EQ has far more situational play than other games that have reduced the options to fewer buttons than you have time to cool down.
  17. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    The complexity of EQ makes it far more interesting to play, EQ is a bit boring in the early levels where all you do is hit attack, backstab, kick, etc once or twice a fight. With auto skill now you don't even have to do that.
    Xianzu_Monk_Tunare and Stymie like this.
  18. Treiln Augur

    Cacophony = Bard
    Mark of the Mage Hunter = Warrior iirc
    Hard to use those abilities as a Beastlord isn’t it?

    I’m not saying EQ doesn’t have complexity or situational play. But it’s really not that “complex”.

    I’ll use WoW as an example since it’s what im more recently familiar with. But WoW has done pruning over the years. Reduced and collapsed abilities into one another, even done a level crunch.

    Fewer abilities than EQ has by a lot, but has a lot more “situational” play and “complexity” added into it. Although the same class, there’s multiple different ways to build your character which results in different ways to play and different ways/rotations on using your abilities. Stat allocation dictates how you play as well. Their clickies are even more “time sensitive” if you will. And most of their abilities cannot be macro’d together to fire them all off at once and just mashing “E” repeatedly until a mob is dead.

    DPS in EQ isn’t very complex. Hardest part is learning to not overlap abilities.
    Tanking is understanding what your defensives do and when to use them (as is most tanking in MMOs)
    Healing I can’t really touch on. Never liked the way Healing works in EQ
  19. Act of Valor The Newest Member

    Vanguard had a perfect balance of simplicity and modest complexity. By the way, Daybreak, please bring that game back. You own it and are letting it rot!
  20. Duder Augur

    The players who are still here like complexity to some degree. Should they perform cyclical ability consolidations to remove needless complexity? Yes. But do not water EQ down to a modern day game's standards please.

    They have removed a good amount of needless complexity in the past but I would agree a bit more consolidation is called for about now. However, there are so many item clicks, numerous features, AA lines and abilities that perform so many different things and are the root of the core mechanics of EverQuest's gameplay and intended player interaction level. So when considering consolidation it takes a LOT of work into reviewing a LOT of information. Thus why I imagine these tasks arent undertaken regularly nor would I expect them to be. Lastly, even with consolidations performed in the past, it really didn't remove the complexity to the degree you seem to want, a 4-5 button/ability boring interface with the interaction involvement of a sloth and nor would much of the population find any interest in playing the game any more if that's what it became. Honing our skill and evolving our playstyles via play experience is a core interest to every single class.
    Xianzu_Monk_Tunare and Shanarias like this.