I cannot stress this enough. But when we have 150k+ endurance pool but any and mind you compared to any mana regen clickies and buffs out there as very small amount of options, the value is so stupidly small compared to mana regen. Suggestion: All of the aa passive clickies that regen HP and MP, should also regen Endurance by a value close to if not equal to mana regen on it. IE, maybe add endurance regen to Enchanter regen mana line, this would also make enchanters a little more valuable beyond just mess. The clicky aa line SOOTHING BREATH, should have endurance value added equal to mana regen value. And anyone that says well, you have the breath line, yeah ok sure, while My endurance flies down constantly, and you can cast almost any spell like made and almost barely loose mana, that really is a valid arguement...Anyways Just a few simple suggestions that really need to be addressed, and fyi the Breather line, doesnt work in combat so yeah sure during normal grouping I can see breather being almost substanial and even then still have endurance issues even with raid gear during group settings, cause BREATHER cd is too high. Secound and major issue is lack of Endurance regen balanced to endurance cost and endurance pool really hurts on raids. Warriors in particular, our howl of the warlord line DOES NOT remove agro from any raid targets, meaning your OOE, you have insanely limited options to try and regen, and the few clickies and aa's out there don't even COME CLOSE to endurance pool values. Almost every mana class in the game has some form of mana recovery mechanic that gives them mana back even during raids, yet the very very few and far between abilities and aa's we get for endurance is so miniscule it does ABSOLUTELY nothing. So please consider adding endurance regen values=mana regen values on items that SHOULD or do have endurance regen.
I would have no vote no on this. As a melee or a tank, you get to do a constant dps on auto attack even when you're out of endurance. I understand this is a low dps number which is nowhere near as high as your burns. Running out of endurance is the point and also there to balance the classes. A melee or tank with infinite endurance would be able to swap discs and either burn or tank forever. That is the point of tank swaps. Just reread and seems you are focusing your post on warriors. One warrior was simply not made to tank raid targets by themselves for the duration of the entire raid. All I can say is recruit more warriors or other tank classes To add to my reason why is that a caster with no mana is simply no dps at all, unless it is a mage with a pet. Even then the dps there is lower than even a warrior's on auto attack unless it is burning for a minute or two. The reason why wizards complain on certain events about losing the parse is because the event is too long amd they run out of mana. Enchanters just got nerfed today so they are no longer competing for top dps spots anymore. Only really good mages top the parse. Usually you do not see this too often unless it's a top guild. Even then other classes should be beating the mages unless they ran out of endurance or mana and can no longer compete with the mage. Necros are a completely different story. I agree they shouldn't have infinite mana but they haven't gotten dot revamps either. Maybe this will solve that problem. My post has now reached 15k views and almost 300 replies. Still not one reply from a dev. This tells me they either have no intentions of doing so or they simply are not ready to reply yet. I agree with the fact that we don't need touched in the raid game dps wise but again the group game is completely broken for necs. The only way you come close to topping the parse is if you're either soloing, constantly pulling multiple mobs at the same time, the other classes don't know what they're doing or they're simply being lazy. So again my vote would be no because a melee or tank with infinite endurance would simply be way overpowered and would just get nerfed back anyways.
I never said inifinite endurance now did I I said the enudrance regen values are way off to current endurance cost and endurance pools. Infinite regen would not come from having =endurance regen to mana values, war mnk rogue and (SOMETIMES) zerkers drain endurance just fine, but our in combat regen is WAY below par to current gear and stat values by an extreme amount. Having Hiatus usuable in combat would help some but even then you can easily burn endurance faster then it can give you and then you are waiting for the CD which is fairly long just like any other regen ability. But endurance regen values are insanely low compared to endurance pools and cost, I am merely suggesting things to help with that.
The worst part if being rezzed into the raid and ae hits, so now you are back in combat and cant use breather. so need to use a fade ability that may or may not be up, or a FD pot that may or may not even work...
As a necro I could complain my mana is not as high as my hp, but that's not going to get me very far until dot revamps happen. I get that you don't want infinite endurance, but putting current endurance regen rates at current mana regen rates would basically do that. Look at death bloom. I'm 99.9% certain that any tank or melee would never run out of endurance again with an endurance regen equivalent. This game is centered around either picking one stat to max or trying to balance a few of them, usually two. When we asked devs if we could pick two stats that we want to max, we got shut down. A flat out no. I don't think you should get better treatment than the rest of us. Sure I agree that mod rods should work for endurance too, and maybe endurance regen should be a little better, but it should never = mana regen. The game is not and simply would not be balanced like that.
Yes but having 20 endurance regen type buffs with a 150k+ endurance pool does absolutely nothing, if lets say an item or ability or spell did a temporary 500 mana regen but only gives 20 endurance regen how is that of any value what so ever, the only thing in the game that even come close to helping endurance what so ever and even then its very little is beast paragon. Every other endurance regen clicky aa or disc that is combat usable is completely worthless in most situations. Cost and endurance pool is not even with the endurance regen values, this has been said several times not the only one. But adding a higher value= the mana regen from things such as Soothing breath would not make it infinite by a long shot at best it would at least make it actually regen some in combat as opposed to non-existant. Try medding endurance with raid timer rest on and then watch someone with mana and see the difference.
Ever get a call? You're are also comparing equal Endur/Mana pools when looking at regen but you are not comparing equal cost. You have ONE disc that cost you 5470 Endur and is usable every 5m. I am not sure there is an equal level caster spell that is even below that
It's remarkable how much you forget about the game when you're not playing. And remarkable how much you remember when you see a title such as this. It's unfortunate that this issue hasn't been resolved yet. I'm glad that people still have the drive to push for it though. My endurance was around 190k, I think. There were a few high-cost abilities that would drop my endurance by a noticeable amount. At the start of a burn, I could easily drop 30%. My mash key would take care of the rest in due time - small abilities with small endurance costs paired with small cooldown timers equal large endurance losses. One ability in particular, the name of which escapes me, had a HUGE endurance cost with a minimal amount of DPS increase. Using this ability was basically endurance suicide. (Hopefully it's been changed. Monks?) In terms of endurance gain, there are a few abilities. Breather is one of the best, with a short cooldown and pretty decent regen amount, it should be the go-to for melee. The issue is getting out of combat, as mentioned above. Hiatus is along the same lines, although the cooldown on it is significantly higher than breather. You run the risk of being out of endurance longer by using this. I don't recommend it. Other in-combat abilities for end regen rely on either procs or damage. Both of which rely on haste, which is nerfed when rezzed. Other classes have great abilities or items to regen mana when they're rezzed in and become immediately viable. Start throwing dots again, nukes, heals, whatever. Yes, a melee can still autoattack when they're out of endurance, but that's about as useful as having a merc in the raid. Mod rods have been around for as long as I can remember (since launch? I've only ever really played melee, so I couldn't tell you accurately). The game has evolved, and mod rods and the like have evolved with it. Endurance, on the other hand, was only used to increase run speed a la jumping. Many an orc I escaped from in GFay thanks to my run & jump speed. As the game evolved and introduced endurance-taxing abilities, the endurance-regen abilities / items were left in the dust. My endurance pool is along the same size as an equally geared mana user, yet almost all regen items for mana and endurance are at least 2:1, if not 10:1 (again, memory is failing on these, so those ratios are anecdotal). As with all things in the game, changing how endurance is regened would need to be tested, or at least incrementally increased. Add a bit to the mod rods and see how it goes. Still lacking? Add a bit more. Bit more. Bit more. Add some more to the songs, spells, buffs, etc. Add until posts like these and users like me stop posting about it.
It has not, mine is still at rank 2 and likely won't be bought for a while. Breather does not work on many current raids, the bosses are too high to fade. Guess you don't have mana preservation huh? That's a pity!
The percentage return on the abilities is nice, yes. But these abilities still require us to be out of combat. Something which cannot be done reliably in current raids (still, it seems. Was hoping that would've changed by now). A problem with the percentage point (29% for raid level) is that you actually have to wait until you're below that point before you can start to mitigate your losses. Casters can start their mana-regen stuff immediately (correct me if I'm wrong). Cast a heavy burn, cast a mod rod immediately after. By the time you're at 29%, you've used more than 71% of your mana. By the time I'm at 29%, I've used 71% of my endurance. And while we are percent based, getting more and more back as we get more and more endurance, the rate at which we get it back stays the same. To the point where Breather (most current?) actually fades out before it hits the 29% cap. Hiatus gets you to 35% I believe, and fairly rapidly, but it has a looong cooldown. I would never recommend using it in its current state. As for the costs, those look like big numbers. Mana burn especially. But if I recall correctly, using it on a mob puts a counter on it that prevents another wizard from using it, right? For 2 minutes? The other high-cost spells also have cast time and cooldown. So while these spells have a high cost, spread over the time they're not as bad as one would think. My mash key had 12 abilities in it. Nearly each one using endurance. While the endurance costs for them were relatively low, the amount I was using them was high. One could argue the endurance use per second was more than the mana use per second of a caster. I did the math a while back, and the results were fairly close. I think casters were ahead, but not by much. Certainly not enough to justify the difference in endurance regen vs. mana regen. There is another ability the monks got in RoS that helps a bunch with endurance. Returns a certain percent of damage back as endurance, for the entire group. Works wonderfully. I used it during burns all the time, especially at the start. Burn to 70-80%, drop this ability, rise to 100%. It's a risky move though - if you die, you're basically borked for endurance for the remainder of the event. When you're below 29%, this ability is still limited - typically a burn that would net you 20-30% endurance would require discs and abilities which are down, which is why you're below 29% in the first place!
The only Endurance thing that is % based is Monk's ability in RoS at 0.3% at max rank on Melee Physical Hit type DPS only (so no procs or spell nukes), otherwise endurance stuff isn't % base, it is all a flat # based just like mana regen stuff Breather for example is Slot 1: Increase Current Endurance by 4203 per tick (Decaying to 1401 @ 467/tick) At a cost of 25 + 1 per second - 67 total loss to use, anything actively draining your endurance will remove this buff as you hit 0 endurance and don't have the 1 per second upkeep, so even managing to get out of combat there are still some fights where the buff poofs
Mana has % based preservation. It's reduced by proficiency in Evocation Alteration etc... There's this neat little ability called gift of mana where infinitely, no matter how large your mana cost of a -spell- it costs 1 point. There's even a neat post in the latest patch bug thread showing something like 60 GoM procs in 30 minutes? Comparing base spell cost to base endurance cost and the rate each drains a similar mana/endurance pool is Empire State Building.
Are we really making this a contest about who has it worse? You complain about spell reflect, melee have to deal with riposte, damage shield, reverse damage shield, reverse life leech, and wild ramp. Don't pretend that there isn't endurance drain or that your braid gets the occasional free cast. That essence has a long cooldown, breather only maintains if it's used as it comes up. All classes deal with resource management. Don't pretend that casters have it worse or snear at us melee (not that I really care too much, the lowest my endurance gets is ~10% in Sathir Line if I don't die-I'm just not a fan of caster complaints).
Melee and casters each have mechanics to deal with on raids. Raiding last night I encountered a 12k DS. Being a monk, I can hit 20-30x per second during a burn (which is typically what I would be doing anyway). Even on the low end, that's 200k+ damage to me in a second. Add in AEs, ramps, riposte, dots, whatever... that's a dead monk. 4 of us died at the same time to it - it was pretty funny, actually. Other mechanics include damage % feedback. Auras. AEs. DoTs. Rampage. Ripostes. Positioning. But as posted above, it's not a contest about who has it worse. We both have to deal with things outside of our abilities that drain our resources. This is about the fact that resource replenishment, or even mitigation, is lacking compared to mana-users. But the consequences we face are equal or worse. Auras that drain mana also drain an equal amount of endurance. Lingering Essence of Cazic Thule has a 1 hour 40 minute cooldown on it. In other posts, I advocate against using Hiatus over Breather as it has a 6 minute cooldown vs. a 1.5 minute cooldown. Relying on a 100 minute cooldown item is absurd. And even if this were something you would use, there's no guarantee it would work. Getting out of combat isn't the only issue, staying out of combat is as large of an issue. There are mechanics within the new raids that place you nearly immediately into combat following escape / rez. I've zoned in (banner or rez) to a raid and been 'in combat' before my screen finished loading. This takes out our primary endurance return (either Breather or Hiatus). Endurance regeneration has been crippled, the reasoning behind it still remains unknown (at least to me). Death has always hindered melee - combat haste being capped at 95% is brutal. The endurance ability we relied upon (Breather) is ineffective. Other endurance regenerating abilities rely upon combat - either % damage or # of hits, both of them rely on combat haste which is at 95%. Casters, on the other hand, can use most (all?) of their mana regenerating abilities in combat. A shaman being rezzed in can get enough of their mana back in a short amount of time to be viable again. If I die, I basically say "well, that's the end of that parse." As far as the comment about a raid not kicking out the damage it should... I've raided with some of the best in the game, putting out mind-boggling parses, clearing events in record time, and chaining events back to back to back with such speed that you don't even end up in rest mode between events. Fortunately you actually end up out-of-combat between events and can get up to 29% (maybe even 35% if you're really lucky) before you start again. I've also raided with people that will wait 20 minutes between events to ensure all disciplines / mana / endurance / buffs are ready. In both situations, I've been able to drain my endurance. Stepping up your game isn't the solution.
Not much to add here except that Breather is old enough that it only restores up to 12% of my endurance pool per use now in full RoS raid gear, so it is quickly losing its viability. Hiatus has enough endurance regen for now (until the next expansion raises endurance pools again without a new discipline as usual), but it's hot garbage otherwise with the self-slow and double the reuse timer. The difficulty of getting Out Of Combat for many of these undead and add-wave focused events is a raid design problem.
Looks like Ton Po's Stance is getting buffed in the next patch and its cost reduced, hopefully a fair amount to make it worth using.
